• SLYEDIT and backspace

    From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 10:23:23
    Hey Nightfox!

    I've been using SLYEDIT - as my prefered editor and I've noticed something that I'm not sure if you can fix (or I need to fix).

    I'm toggling a lot between using SyncTerm and my normal terminal window (on a MAC) to access Synchronet. (And I love how it just works seemlessly between the two different client UIs - the MAC terminal window gives me more screen real estate.)

    I've noticed when I'm on the MAC terminal - my "Delete" key (backspace) is not working in SLYEDIT - whereas it does in SyncTERM. To verify, it works
    no problem with any SyncTerm input, as well as using deuces FSEditor - so I'm thinking there is a parameter that is missing (or needs to be passed from Synchronet).

    Any ideas?
    ...*

    ... Without followers, evil cannot spread. Spock, stardate 5029.5.

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Alterego on Monday, August 12, 2019 19:15:25
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 10:23 am

    Hey Nightfox!

    I've been using SLYEDIT - as my prefered editor and I've noticed something that I'm not sure if you can fix (or I need to fix).

    I'm toggling a lot between using SyncTerm and my normal terminal window (on a MAC) to access Synchronet. (And I love how it just works seemlessly between the two different client UIs - the MAC terminal window gives me more screen real estate.)

    I've noticed when I'm on the MAC terminal - my "Delete" key (backspace) is not working in SLYEDIT - whereas it does in SyncTERM. To verify, it works
    no problem with any SyncTerm input, as well as using deuces FSEditor - so I'm thinking there is a parameter that is missing (or needs to be passed from Synchronet).

    Any ideas?

    There's a terminal setting in Synchronet to treat DEL as Backspace (left-delete) and that settings needs to be enabled (in user [D]efaults) for terminals that send 0x7F (DEL) when pressing the backspace/left-delete key.

    That said, fseditor treats the DEL (0x7F) character the same as the backspace (0x08) character when the cursor is already at the end of the current line. Synchronet does the same (e.g. with the internal line editor). So perhaps slyedit could use that same logic.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #5:
    Nigel Tufnel: Authorities said... best leave it... unsolved.
    Norco, CA WX: 78.3F, 49.0% humidity, 9 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:36:30
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Mon Aug 12 2019 07:15 pm

    There's a terminal setting in Synchronet to treat DEL as Backspace (left-delete) and that settings needs to be enabled (in user [D]efaults) for terminals that send 0x7F (DEL) when pressing the backspace/left-delete key.

    Where is this? Once logged in right, on the main menu [D] defaults? (In the Synchronet Class Shell?)

    I dont see a Treat DEL as Backspace option?

    That said, fseditor treats the DEL (0x7F) character the same as the backspace (0x08) character when the cursor is already at the end of the current line. Synchronet does the same (e.g. with the internal line editor). So perhaps slyedit could use that same logic.

    I was hoping for this outcome :-P
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Alterego on Monday, August 12, 2019 19:46:51
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 12:36 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Mon Aug 12 2019 07:15 pm

    There's a terminal setting in Synchronet to treat DEL as Backspace (left-delete) and that settings needs to be enabled (in user [D]efaults) for terminals that send 0x7F (DEL) when pressing the backspace/left-delete key.

    Where is this? Once logged in right, on the main menu [D] defaults? (In the Synchronet Class Shell?)

    I dont see a Treat DEL as Backspace option?

    Use the (T)erminal option and it'll prompt you.

    That said, fseditor treats the DEL (0x7F) character the same as the backspace (0x08) character when the cursor is already at the end of the current line. Synchronet does the same (e.g. with the internal line editor). So perhaps slyedit could use that same logic.

    I was hoping for this outcome :-P

    It's not a perfect solution either.

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #16:
    Synchronet first supported FidoNet networking (with SBBSFIDO) in 1992.
    Norco, CA WX: 75.0F, 54.0% humidity, 6 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 09:34:51
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 10:23 am

    I've been using SLYEDIT - as my prefered editor and I've noticed something that I'm not sure if you can fix (or I need to fix).

    I'm not sure. It just gets key codes based on what Synchronet thinks was typed on the console. And normally, backspace and delete are 2 different keys - Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete' key normally deletes the next character.

    I do remember some sort of mention of some setting in Synchronet to treat the delete key as backspace? I don't remember exactly what that was. Perhaps Digital Man can answer?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 09:46:26
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Mon Aug 12 2019 07:15 pm

    That said, fseditor treats the DEL (0x7F) character the same as the backspace (0x08) character when the cursor is already at the end of the current line. Synchronet does the same (e.g. with the internal line editor). So perhaps slyedit could use that same logic.

    Normally, delete and backspace are 2 somewhat different things though: Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete' key normally deletes the next character. That's how SlyEdit currently behaves, and sometimes I use the delete key to delete the next character. I'm not sure I'd want to lose that functionality. I'm curious why some editors would treat the delete key the same as the backspace key?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 13:13:56
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 09:46 am

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Mon Aug 12 2019 07:15 pm

    That said, fseditor treats the DEL (0x7F) character the same as the backspace (0x08) character when the cursor is already at the end of the current line. Synchronet does the same (e.g. with the internal line editor). So perhaps slyedit could use that same logic.

    Normally, delete and backspace are 2 somewhat different things though: Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete' key normally deletes the next character. That's how SlyEdit currently behaves, and sometimes I use the delete key to delete the next character. I'm not sure I'd want to lose that functionality. I'm curious why some editors would treat the delete key the same as the backspace key?

    If the cursor is at the end of the last line, what does the delete key do in SlyEdit? If nothing, it could possibly instead, perform the same operation as backspace. That's what Synchronet and fseditor.js do.

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #45:
    Synchronet External "Plain Old Telephone System" support was introduced in 2007.
    Norco, CA WX: 90.0F, 40.0% humidity, 5 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 14:36:11
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 01:13 pm

    Normally, delete and backspace are 2 somewhat different things though:
    Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete'
    key normally deletes the next character. That's how SlyEdit currently
    behaves, and sometimes I use the delete key to delete the next
    character. I'm not sure I'd want to lose that functionality. I'm
    curious why some editors would treat the delete key the same as the
    backspace key?

    If the cursor is at the end of the last line, what does the delete key do in SlyEdit? If nothing, it could possibly instead, perform the same operation as backspace. That's what Synchronet and fseditor.js do.

    At the end of the last line, it wouldn't do anything. I suppose it could do a backspace in that instance.

    I haven't seen any other program behave like that though.. It seems inconsistent with what I'd expect. I actually haven't even noticed Synchronet behave like that (though, I tend to use the backspace key when I want to do a backspace).

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 15:06:11
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 02:36 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 01:13 pm

    Normally, delete and backspace are 2 somewhat different things though:
    Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete'
    key normally deletes the next character. That's how SlyEdit currently
    behaves, and sometimes I use the delete key to delete the next
    character. I'm not sure I'd want to lose that functionality. I'm
    curious why some editors would treat the delete key the same as the
    backspace key?

    If the cursor is at the end of the last line, what does the delete key do in SlyEdit? If nothing, it could possibly instead, perform the same operation as backspace. That's what Synchronet and fseditor.js do.

    At the end of the last line, it wouldn't do anything. I suppose it could do a backspace in that instance.

    I haven't seen any other program behave like that though.. It seems inconsistent with what I'd expect. I actually haven't even noticed Synchronet behave like that (though, I tend to use the backspace key when I want to do a backspace).

    Right, but you would notice it if you used a terminal that sends 0x7F when the backspace key is hit (or the key that's normally in the position of backspace key, as in a mac keyboard). *nix terminals tend to do this.

    Like I said, it's not a complete fix for the issue, but it helps with the majority use case (hitting the backspace key at the end of a line of input).

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #32:
    Derek Smalls: [A jog?] We don't have time for that.
    Norco, CA WX: 90.0F, 36.0% humidity, 13 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 15:33:38
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 03:06 pm

    Right, but you would notice it if you used a terminal that sends 0x7F when the backspace key is hit (or the key that's normally in the position of backspace key, as in a mac keyboard). *nix terminals tend to do this.

    Like I said, it's not a complete fix for the issue, but it helps with the majority use case (hitting the backspace key at the end of a line of input).

    I suppose there's a historical reason *nix terminals behave that way?

    It seems odd for a modern computer to lack a proper backspace key..

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 16:42:23
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 03:33 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 03:06 pm

    Right, but you would notice it if you used a terminal that sends 0x7F when the backspace key is hit (or the key that's normally in the position of backspace key, as in a mac keyboard). *nix terminals tend to do this.

    Like I said, it's not a complete fix for the issue, but it helps with the majority use case (hitting the backspace key at the end of a line of input).

    I suppose there's a historical reason *nix terminals behave that way?

    It seems odd for a modern computer to lack a proper backspace key..

    It's not that they don't have the key (well, Mac's don't really have a backspace key, but they have a key in that position labeled "delete" that usually does the same thing) - it's that the key will be translated to a different keyboard scan code or ASCII character by drivers and such:
    https://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Keyboard-and-Console-HOWTO-5.html

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #24:
    DTE = Data Terminal Equipment
    Norco, CA WX: 89.0F, 37.0% humidity, 10 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Immortal@VERT/IDOMAIN to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 18:04:21
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 03:33 pm

    It seems odd for a modern computer to lack a proper backspace key..

    He's using a mac. Apple likes to be different.

    Immortal

    ... God is alive- he just doesn't want to get involved.

    ---
    Synchronet Immortal's Domain
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 08:59:07
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 09:46 am

    Normally, delete and backspace are 2 somewhat different things though: Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete' key normally deletes the next character. That's how SlyEdit currently behaves, and sometimes I use the delete key to delete the next character. I'm not sure I'd want to lose that functionality. I'm curious why some editors would treat the delete key the same as the backspace key?

    The issue comes about, because on a MAC, you only have a DELETE key (not a backspace key).

    When I first logged into Synchronet, it asked me to press the backspace key, and recorded what that was - so going forward, whenever I press it does what I expect.

    I was hoping that knowledge could be past to SLYEDIT. It seems it is past to FSeditor, because it does behave appropriately.
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Alterego on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 18:43:14
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 08:59 am

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 13 2019 09:46 am

    Normally, delete and backspace are 2 somewhat different things though: Backspace normally deletes the previous character, and the 'delete' key normally deletes the next character. That's how SlyEdit currently behaves, and sometimes I use the delete key to delete the next character. I'm not sure I'd want to lose that functionality. I'm curious why some editors would treat the delete key the same as the backspace key?

    The issue comes about, because on a MAC, you only have a DELETE key (not a backspace key).

    When I first logged into Synchronet, it asked me to press the backspace key, and recorded what that was - so going forward, whenever I press it does what I expect.

    I was hoping that knowledge could be past to SLYEDIT. It seems it is past to FSeditor, because it does behave appropriately.

    Ah, good point. fseditor.js uses console.inkey() to capture keyboard input from the remote user. The underlying C function (sbbs_t::inkey()) recognizes the user terminal setting to swap the DEL and Bkspc keys and can return 0x7F when it gets a 0x08 from the terminal when that setting is enabled.

    Maybe SlyEdit is using some other lower-level method of capturing keyboard input.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #28:
    We've got Armadillos in our trousers. It's really quite frightening.
    Norco, CA WX: 84.4F, 42.0% humidity, 8 mph NNE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Immortal on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 09:36:45
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Immortal to Nightfox on Tue Aug 13 2019 06:04 pm

    It seems odd for a modern computer to lack a proper backspace key..

    He's using a mac. Apple likes to be different.

    I was going to say that's one reason I'm not particularly keen on Apple/Mac..

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 09:39:10
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 08:59 am

    The issue comes about, because on a MAC, you only have a DELETE key (not a backspace key).

    When I first logged into Synchronet, it asked me to press the backspace key, and recorded what that was - so going forward, whenever I press it does what I expect.

    I was hoping that knowledge could be past to SLYEDIT. It seems it is past to FSeditor, because it does behave appropriately. ...*

    I think a text editor should behave appropriately for both backspace and delete keys.. I tend to use both, so I wouldn't want to use that functionality. As has been mentioned, Synchronet has a setting to treat delete as backspace. But I'll probably implement a change in SlyEdit as Digital Man mentioned, where if the cursor is at the end of the last line, to treat delete as backspace.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:00:16
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Tue Aug 13 2019 06:43 pm

    Ah, good point. fseditor.js uses console.inkey() to capture keyboard input from the remote user. The underlying C function (sbbs_t::inkey()) recognizes the user terminal setting to swap the DEL and Bkspc keys and can return 0x7F when it gets a 0x08 from the terminal when that setting is enabled.

    Maybe SlyEdit is using some other lower-level method of capturing keyboard input.

    Looking at the user input code in SlyEdit (which is one of its oldest functions and may need to be re-written), it's using console.inkey() for non-sysop users, and console.getkey() for the sysop. I think I was doing that because SlyEdit uses a customizable input timeout with console.inkey() but I didn't want an input timeout for the sysop - and perhaps the input timeout is optional with console.inkey() and I didn't know at the time?

    Does console.getkey() swap the DEL and backspace keys? Maybe I should update SlyEdit to just use console.inkey() for all user input.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:40:52
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Tue Aug 13 2019 06:43 pm

    Ah, good point. fseditor.js uses console.inkey() to capture keyboard input from the remote user. The underlying C function (sbbs_t::inkey()) recognizes the user terminal setting to swap the DEL and Bkspc keys and can return 0x7F when it gets a 0x08 from the terminal when that setting is enabled.

    Maybe SlyEdit is using some other lower-level method of capturing keyboard input.

    I tried going into my user preferences and when it asked me to press my delete-back key, I pressed delete (instead of backspace), and then tried typing a message with SlyEdit, and the delete key worked as backsapce. So I'm not sure if SlyEdit is actually working properly or if there's another scenerio where it might not work properly?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:42:35
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 08:59 am

    The issue comes about, because on a MAC, you only have a DELETE key (not a backspace key).

    When I first logged into Synchronet, it asked me to press the backspace key, and recorded what that was - so going forward, whenever I press it does what I expect.

    I was hoping that knowledge could be past to SLYEDIT. It seems it is past to FSeditor, because it does behave appropriately. ...*

    I tried going into my user settings when logged on to my BBS and went to the terminal option. When it asked me to press my delete-back key, I pressed my delete key (instead of backspace). Then I tried writing a message with SlyEdit, and the delete key worked for backspace. So I'm curious what specific scenario you're doing where your delete/backspace key isn't working in SlyEdit?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 14:24:07
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Wed Aug 14 2019 10:00 am

    @MSGID: <5D543E20.40467.dove_sync@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <5D536732.5881.sync@vert.synchro.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Tue Aug 13 2019 06:43 pm

    Ah, good point. fseditor.js uses console.inkey() to capture keyboard input from the remote user. The underlying C function (sbbs_t::inkey()) recognizes the user terminal setting to swap the DEL and Bkspc keys and can return 0x7F when it gets a 0x08 from the terminal when that setting is enabled.

    Maybe SlyEdit is using some other lower-level method of capturing keyboard input.

    Looking at the user input code in SlyEdit (which is one of its oldest functions and may need to be re-written), it's using console.inkey() for non-sysop users, and console.getkey() for the sysop. I think I was doing that because SlyEdit uses a customizable input timeout with console.inkey() but I didn't want an input timeout for the sysop - and perhaps the input timeout is optional with console.inkey() and I didn't know at the time?

    I would recommend using hte same input method for both sysops and non-sysops. console.getkey() does a bunch of stuff that inkey() doesn't.

    Does console.getkey() swap the DEL and backspace keys?

    It does.

    Maybe I should
    update SlyEdit to just use console.inkey() for all user input.

    Yeah, but for different reasons. So, if you're already using console.inkey() or console.getkey(), then SlyEdit should already benefit from the new(ish) terminal setting which can swap the DEL/BS keys.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #15:
    Review on "Shark Sandwich", merely a two word review: "Shit Sandwich".
    Norco, CA WX: 95.4F, 25.0% humidity, 9 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 14:25:59
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Wed Aug 14 2019 12:40 pm

    @MSGID: <5D5463C4.40474.dove_sync@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <5D536732.5881.sync@vert.synchro.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Alterego on Tue Aug 13 2019 06:43 pm

    Ah, good point. fseditor.js uses console.inkey() to capture keyboard input from the remote user. The underlying C function (sbbs_t::inkey()) recognizes the user terminal setting to swap the DEL and Bkspc keys and can return 0x7F when it gets a 0x08 from the terminal when that setting is enabled.

    Maybe SlyEdit is using some other lower-level method of capturing keyboard input.

    I tried going into my user preferences and when it asked me to press my delete-back key, I pressed delete (instead of backspace), and then tried typing a message with SlyEdit, and the delete key worked as backsapce. So I'm not sure if SlyEdit is actually working properly or if there's another scenerio where it might not work properly?

    It sounds like it is working properly in that scenario then. Maybe get more info from the original problem-reporter. <shrug>

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #59:
    SBBS = Synchronet Bulletin Board System
    Norco, CA WX: 95.4F, 25.0% humidity, 9 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 15:49:22
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 02:24 pm

    Looking at the user input code in SlyEdit (which is one of its oldest
    functions and may need to be re-written), it's using console.inkey()
    for non-sysop users, and console.getkey() for the sysop. I think I
    was doing that because SlyEdit uses a customizable input timeout with
    console.inkey() but I didn't want an input timeout for the sysop - and
    perhaps the input timeout is optional with console.inkey() and I
    didn't know at the time?

    I would recommend using hte same input method for both sysops and non-sysops. console.getkey() does a bunch of stuff that inkey() doesn't.

    Does console.getkey() swap the DEL and backspace keys?

    It does.

    If console.getkey() does stuff that inkey() doesn't, would you recommend using getkey()? Or does it matter?


    So I'm wondering where the problem might actually be. SlyEdit has been around for about 10 years and this is the first time I'm hearing of this issue. I imagine there have been other Mac users too.. I've also briefly used BBSes on a Mac (using SyncTerm, I believe), but I don't remember if this was an issue I noticed or not.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 16:35:34
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Wed Aug 14 2019 03:49 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 02:24 pm

    Looking at the user input code in SlyEdit (which is one of its oldest
    functions and may need to be re-written), it's using console.inkey()
    for non-sysop users, and console.getkey() for the sysop. I think I
    was doing that because SlyEdit uses a customizable input timeout with
    console.inkey() but I didn't want an input timeout for the sysop - and
    perhaps the input timeout is optional with console.inkey() and I
    didn't know at the time?

    I would recommend using hte same input method for both sysops and non-sysops. console.getkey() does a bunch of stuff that inkey() doesn't.

    Does console.getkey() swap the DEL and backspace keys?

    It does.

    If console.getkey() does stuff that inkey() doesn't, would you recommend using getkey()? Or does it matter?

    console.getkey() doesn't return until the user either sends a keystroke or disconnects. So if you want to implement your own inactivity timer/alert, then getkey() is probably not what you want to use. In any full-screen style module, I would recommend using inkey() as getkey() can send lines of text to the terminal (e.g. upon user inactivity) thus messing up your user's full-screen experience.

    So I'm wondering where the problem might actually be. SlyEdit has been around for about 10 years and this is the first time I'm hearing of this issue. I imagine there have been other Mac users too.. I've also briefly used BBSes on a Mac (using SyncTerm, I believe), but I don't remember if this was an issue I noticed or not.

    I think SyncTERM on a Mac is fine, it's using the included ssh client (OpenSSH) from the Mac OS-X terminal that's the issue (where the key labeled "Delete" that is located where the Backspace key normally is, sends 0x7F).

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #37:
    Synchronet's Windows Control Panel is built with Borland C++ Builder.
    Norco, CA WX: 93.9F, 19.0% humidity, 10 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 09:26:01
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Wed Aug 14 2019 09:39 am

    delete as backspace. But I'll probably implement a change in SlyEdit as Digital Man mentioned, where if the cursor is at the end of the last line, to treat delete as backspace.

    Actually, that probably addresses the most common use case (in my case anyway) - ie: typing a realising that your brain and fingers were disconnected.

    I played around a bit more with this - and the DELETE key (on my MAC), does delete the character in front of the cursor (if there is one), but delete the character behind the cursor if there isnt.

    Also know CTRL-H, which I retrieved from long term memory :)

    Oh, and for the record, when you go through Default and Terminal, and record BS=DEL, then everything works as expected in UTF - but back in SyncTERM it only works as "DELETE" (ie: deleting the character in front, if there isnt one, nothing happens) and only behaves this way in Slyedit.
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 09:29:35
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Wed Aug 14 2019 12:40 pm

    I tried going into my user preferences and when it asked me to press my delete-back key, I pressed delete (instead of backspace), and then tried typing a message with SlyEdit, and the delete key worked as
    backsapce. So I'm not sure if SlyEdit is actually working properly or if there's another scenerio where it might not work properly?

    I'm toggling between using SyncTerm and an UTF8 terminal.

    So yes, if I only ever used SyncTerm, then I dont think its an issue. But because I'm including to use the UTF8 terminal more (and I occassionally go back to Syncterm), Slyedit behaves differently. (And only Slyedit so far...)


    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Digital Man on Thursday, August 15, 2019 10:18:34
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 04:35 pm

    I think SyncTERM on a Mac is fine, it's using the included ssh client (OpenSSH) from the Mac OS-X terminal that's the issue (where the key labeled "Delete" that is located where the Backspace key normally is, sends 0x7F).

    Actually, in my case, when I'm using my MAC terminal, I'm using just good ol' telnet (iTerm2 to be specific).
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From The Millionaire@VERT to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 17:42:32
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 04:35 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Wed Aug 14 2019 03:49 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2019 02:24 pm

    Looking at the user input code in SlyEdit (which is one of its oldest
    functions and may need to be re-written), it's using console.inkey()
    for non-sysop users, and console.getkey() for the sysop. I think I
    was doing that because SlyEdit uses a customizable input timeout with
    console.inkey() but I didn't want an input timeout for the sysop - and
    perhaps the input timeout is optional with console.inkey() and I
    didn't know at the time?

    I would recommend using hte same input method for both sysops and non-sysops. console.getkey() does a bunch of stuff that inkey()
    doesn't.

    Does console.getkey() swap the DEL and backspace keys?

    It does.

    If console.getkey() does stuff that inkey() doesn't, would you recommend using getkey()? Or does it matter?

    console.getkey() doesn't return until the user either sends a keystroke or disconnects. So if you want to implement your own inactivity
    timer/alert, then getkey() is probably not what you want to use. In any full-screen style module, I would recommend using inkey() as
    getkey() can send lines of text to the terminal (e.g. upon user inactivity) thus messing up your user's full-screen experience.

    So I'm wondering where the problem might actually be. SlyEdit has been around for about 10 years and this is the first time I'm
    hearing
    of this issue. I imagine there have been other Mac users too.. I've also briefly used BBSes on a Mac (using SyncTerm, I believe),
    but I
    don't remember if this was an issue I noticed or not.

    I think SyncTERM on a Mac is fine, it's using the included ssh client (OpenSSH) from the Mac OS-X terminal that's the issue (where the
    key
    labeled "Delete" that is located where the Backspace key normally is, sends 0x7F).

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #37:
    Synchronet's Windows Control Panel is built with Borland C++ Builder.
    Norco, CA WX: 93.9F, 19.0% humidity, 10 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    yeah i ran syncterm on a 24" mac osx back then. ran pretty stable.

    $ The Millionaire $

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 21:46:03
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 09:26 am

    delete as backspace. But I'll probably implement a change in
    SlyEdit as Digital Man mentioned, where if the cursor is at the end
    of the last line, to treat delete as backspace.

    Actually, that probably addresses the most common use case (in my case anyway) - ie: typing a realising that your brain and fingers were disconnected.

    I just committed a change to SlyEdit that does that. When you're at the end of the last line, DEL will be treated as a backspace.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 16:02:31
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Wed Aug 14 2019 09:46 pm

    I just committed a change to SlyEdit that does that. When you're at the end of the last line, DEL will be treated as a backspace.

    Awesome, I'll try it out. :)
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 16:09:13
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Wed Aug 14 2019 09:46 pm

    I just committed a change to SlyEdit that does that. When you're at the end of the last line, DEL will be treated as a backspace.

    I also wanted to ask...

    So I often use my MAC's iTERM2 window to access Synch, since it gives me more realestate. My screen size is much wider than 80 chars.

    When I read messages (like this one that I'm answering), the line that I've included as a quote is on a single line on the original message.

    When I answer and quote it, its wrapped to 80 characters over two lines - but this response, much of what I'm typing now is longer than 80 chars (so its not wrapping at 80 chars), so it does look a little unusual. (IE: It wraps normally when I get to the edge of my screen.)

    I'm happy to give a picture if this doesnt make sense.

    Just think it looks odd ;)



    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 16:13:29
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:09 pm

    Just think it looks odd ;)

    BTW: When I see my post after I sent it, my quoted text is not wrapped unusually...

    :)
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 00:14:19
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:13 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:09 pm

    Just think it looks odd ;)

    BTW: When I see my post after I sent it, my quoted text is not wrapped unusually...

    The reason for that is that when you're reading the message text, it's being put through Synchronet's internal word-wrap logic which re-flows quoted text (along with the rest of the message text) to fit the current terminal width.

    fseditor.js also re-flows quoted text and it seems to work pretty great.

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #31:
    The Synchronet IRC server (ircd) was written in JS by Randy Sommerfeld (Cyan). Norco, CA WX: 71.3F, 66.0% humidity, 0 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 09:41:43
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:09 pm

    I also wanted to ask...

    So I often use my MAC's iTERM2 window to access Synch, since it gives me more realestate. My screen size is much wider than 80 chars.

    Other BBS terminals support wide modes. SyncTerm, for instance, supports some wide terminal modes beyond 80 characters.


    That's by design. Historically, 80 characters has been a very common terminal width, and I think by default, Synchronet wraps the lines to be quoted to 80 characters. There's even an option in SCFG for message editors to tell it to wrap quote lines at 80 characters or terminal width (Synchronet is doing that when it writes the message quote lines, which SlyEdit then reads).

    80 characters is a recommended width for quote lines in order for the message to look good in other readers (including online and offline readers) which are likely to use a width of 80 characters. The reason is that quoted lines are prefixed with some characters (usually " > ", or it may include author's initials in some cases). So if the quote lines were longer and re-wrapped, the line prefixes might be messed up in some readers. In SCFG, I would recommend keeping it to wrap quote lines at 80 characters for the message editor.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 09:42:11
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:13 pm

    BTW: When I see my post after I sent it, my quoted text is not wrapped unusually...

    I'm not sure what you mean by "not wrapped unusually"? What is wrapped usually vs. unusually?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 11:18:00
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Thu Aug 15 2019 09:41 am

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:09 pm

    I also wanted to ask...

    So I often use my MAC's iTERM2 window to access Synch, since it gives me more realestate. My screen size is much wider than 80 chars.

    Other BBS terminals support wide modes. SyncTerm, for instance, supports some wide terminal modes beyond 80 characters.


    That's by design. Historically, 80 characters has been a very common terminal width, and I think by default, Synchronet wraps the lines to be quoted to 80 characters. There's even an option in SCFG for message editors to tell it to wrap quote lines at 80 characters or terminal width (Synchronet is doing that when it writes the message quote lines, which SlyEdit then reads).

    80 characters is a recommended width for quote lines in order for the message to look good in other readers (including online and offline readers) which are likely to use a width of 80 characters. The reason is that quoted lines are prefixed with some characters (usually " > ", or it may include author's initials in some cases). So if the quote lines were longer and re-wrapped, the line prefixes might be messed up in some readers. In SCFG, I would recommend keeping it to wrap quote lines at 80 characters for the message editor.

    Synchronet re-flows messages, including quoted text, to display nicely on the user's terminal, regardless of width (40, 80, 132, 192, whatever columns). fseditor.js does the same. So it would be possible for SlyEdit to do that too. <shrug>

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #11:
    DOVE-Net was originally an exclusive ("elite") WWIVnet network in O.C., Calif. Norco, CA WX: 87.2F, 36.0% humidity, 4 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:57:05
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 11:18 am

    80 characters is a recommended width for quote lines in order for the
    message to look good in other readers (including online and offline
    readers) which are likely to use a width of 80 characters. The reason
    is that quoted lines are prefixed with some characters (usually " > ",
    or it may include author's initials in some cases). So if the quote
    lines were longer and re-wrapped, the line prefixes might be messed up
    in some readers. In SCFG, I would recommend keeping it to wrap quote
    lines at 80 characters for the message editor.

    Synchronet re-flows messages, including quoted text, to display nicely on the user's terminal, regardless of width (40, 80, 132, 192, whatever columns). fseditor.js does the same. So it would be possible for SlyEdit to do that too. <shrug>

    I'm a little confused now.. Recently we were discussing re-flowing text in messages, and I thought you had said 80 characters is recommended for quote lines, but new text entered can be re-flowed?

    I'd think the issue with quote lines is that quote lines have a prefix in front of them, so if the quote lines are re-flowed for a different width, the quote prefixes might end up in the middle of the lines. Even if Synchronet can intelligently re-flow quote lines with the prefixes, some users use offline readers that might not be so intelligent about re-flowing quote lines.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 13:37:00
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Aug 15 2019 12:57 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 11:18 am

    80 characters is a recommended width for quote lines in order for the
    message to look good in other readers (including online and offline
    readers) which are likely to use a width of 80 characters. The reason
    is that quoted lines are prefixed with some characters (usually " > ",
    or it may include author's initials in some cases). So if the quote
    lines were longer and re-wrapped, the line prefixes might be messed up
    in some readers. In SCFG, I would recommend keeping it to wrap quote
    lines at 80 characters for the message editor.

    Synchronet re-flows messages, including quoted text, to display nicely on the user's terminal, regardless of width (40, 80, 132, 192, whatever columns). fseditor.js does the same. So it would be possible for SlyEdit to do that too. <shrug>

    I'm a little confused now.. Recently we were discussing re-flowing text in messages, and I thought you had said 80 characters is recommended for quote lines, but new text entered can be re-flowed?

    I may have said that at one time, but that's not the current thinking.

    I'd think the issue with quote lines is that quote lines have a prefix in front of them, so if the quote lines are re-flowed for a different width, the quote prefixes might end up in the middle of the lines. Even if Synchronet can intelligently re-flow quote lines with the prefixes, some users use offline readers that might not be so intelligent about re-flowing quote lines.

    True, but that's kind of an issue with the offline reader. Long-line messages have been sent across FidoNet for decades now (not by Synchronet, until more recently) and I suspect offline message readers should be able to handle them (quotes or not).

    I'm not saying SlyEdit should support long-quote lines, I'm just saying that fseditor.js does and it seems to be working fine. No complaints... yet.

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #37:
    IBM = International Business Machines (Corporation)
    Norco, CA WX: 94.4F, 20.0% humidity, 7 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Thursday, August 15, 2019 15:08:15
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 01:37 pm

    I'm a little confused now.. Recently we were discussing re-flowing
    text in messages, and I thought you had said 80 characters is
    recommended for quote lines, but new text entered can be re-flowed?

    I may have said that at one time, but that's not the current thinking.

    I think it was just a couple weeks ago when you said that.. Has the current thinking changed in that short of time? ;)

    I'm wondering how many modern BBS offline message readers are being maintained these days though. I think MultiMail is still being maintained, and there's also GoldEd, though I'm not sure if that or any others are still being maintained.

    I'm not saying SlyEdit should support long-quote lines, I'm just saying that fseditor.js does and it seems to be working fine. No complaints... yet.

    For SlyEdit, I wonder if I could go to the editor settings in SCFG and have it wrap quote lines to the terminal width instead of 80 characters. I may need to modify SlyEdit slightly to support that, as I think it's hard-coded to wrap quote lines (including room for the quote prefix) at 80 characters.

    I'd just like to make the best compromise to make messages look good for everyone.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 15:38:07
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Aug 15 2019 03:08 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 01:37 pm

    I'm a little confused now.. Recently we were discussing re-flowing
    text in messages, and I thought you had said 80 characters is
    recommended for quote lines, but new text entered can be re-flowed?

    I may have said that at one time, but that's not the current thinking.

    I think it was just a couple weeks ago when you said that.. Has the current thinking changed in that short of time? ;)

    No. I don't think we've discussed the length of quote lines recently.

    I'm wondering how many modern BBS offline message readers are being maintained these days though. I think MultiMail is still being maintained, and there's also GoldEd, though I'm not sure if that or any others are still being maintained.

    Right, and I think those mailers have supported long-line-paragraphs and quoted text for a long time. It's Synchronet that was stuck in the dark ages. :-)

    I'm not saying SlyEdit should support long-quote lines, I'm just saying that fseditor.js does and it seems to be working fine. No complaints... yet.

    For SlyEdit, I wonder if I could go to the editor settings in SCFG and have it wrap quote lines to the terminal width instead of 80 characters. I may need to modify SlyEdit slightly to support that, as I think it's hard-coded to wrap quote lines (including room for the quote prefix) at 80 characters.

    With fseditor.js, that setting doesn't actually make any difference since it re-flows the quoted text anyway.

    I'd just like to make the best compromise to make messages look good for everyone.

    When displaying messages, Synchronet does that already (it re-flows message text, including the quoted text, to conform to the terminal's screen width at the time of viewing). Of course, if you're using a custom message reader/viewer, you may get different results.

    I think the issue the original poster is raising is in regards to the *editing* of quoted messages. The quoted text may look different in the editor (SlyEdit, limiting quoted text lines to 79/80 cols) than when viewed on the BBS (using the normal/internal message viewer).

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #40:
    Morty the Mime: Come on, don't talk back, mime is money, come on, move it. Norco, CA WX: 95.0F, 21.0% humidity, 8 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Friday, August 16, 2019 09:44:53
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Thu Aug 15 2019 09:42 am

    I'm not sure what you mean by "not wrapped unusually"? What is wrapped usually vs. unusually?

    Yeah, I thought it might be a bit difficult to understand (I'm a pictures guy).

    So I put together a zip file with 5 pics, that take you through the Slyedit experience on (my) wide screen.

    https://oc.dlcm.co/s/mc1u28Eisyoet5u

    (I think it'll has for a password, which is 'bbs').

    There is a file in that folder called slyedit.zip. There are 5 screen shots in the zip file.

    1) First I enter a message (no issues here)
    2) View the message (no issues here - but notice where my signature was placed) 3) Replying to that message, the format of how I'm presented to quote you'll see it was wrapped to 80 chars - this is what I was trying to describe
    4) My reply input - you can see I've got the full screen to use - even though the quoted text is wrapped at 80 chars
    5) Reading the message after its posted - the original quoting is no longer wrapped at 80 chars.

    So my suggestions is why is the text wrapped at 80 chars when composing a reply? - it would be great if it was "quoted" but using the available terminal width

    Also, wanted to comment where my signature is placed on screen capture #3 - it was put on a new line - but it has been quoted as being on the end of the original text. (And I do NOT have "Trim spaces from quoted text" selected in settings.). In fact, I always leave a additional blank line after I complete my message so that there is a blank line between my signature and the last paragraph. But that blank line seems to evaporate :) (Or it might be me pressing send too quickly sometimes too - I'll leave a blank line on this message to confirm...)

    Now I get that these is probably not an issue with somebody using a normal 80 char display (like syncterm) but I thought it would be a nice fix for those who are using a UTF8 terminal, since synchronet is working so well with one (while also accommodating CP437 users).
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Thursday, August 15, 2019 16:29:11
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 03:38 pm

    I'm a little confused now.. Recently we were discussing re-flowing
    text in messages, and I thought you had said 80 characters is
    recommended for quote lines, but new text entered can be re-flowed?

    I may have said that at one time, but that's not the current
    thinking.

    I think it was just a couple weeks ago when you said that.. Has the
    current thinking changed in that short of time? ;)

    No. I don't think we've discussed the length of quote lines recently.

    There's a message in the Synchronet Discussion sub-board you wrote to me on August 5th (my BBS says the timestamp is 17:34:30 PDT) where you said:
    The Synchronet built-in word-wrap logic (and JS word_wrap() function) supports the automatic detection and re-wrapping/flowing of quoted text. It need to be limited to 80 characters.

    It was there where you said it needs to be limited to 80 characters. Or did you mean "doesn't need to be"?

    Also, when you say "quoted text", do you mean text that already includes a prefix (such as " > " or " Ni> ")?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 17:08:44
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Fri Aug 16 2019 09:44 am

    Yeah, I thought it might be a bit difficult to understand (I'm a pictures guy).


    Yeah, looks about as expected.

    So my suggestions is why is the text wrapped at 80 chars when composing a reply? - it would be great if it was "quoted" but using the available

    My understanding was that 80 characters was a good with for quote lines to look good in various readers with varying widths. The issue with quote lines is that they have a prefix (in this case, " Al> "), and my concern is that readers might not have the logic to wrap quote lines without mangling that prefix.

    Also, wanted to comment where my signature is placed on screen capture #3 - it was put on a new line - but it has been quoted as being on the end of the original text. (And I do NOT have "Trim spaces from quoted text" selected in settings.). In fact, I always leave a additional blank line after I complete my message so that there is a blank line between my signature and the last paragraph. But that blank line seems to evaporate :) (Or it might be me pressing send too quickly sometimes too - I'll leave a blank line on this message to confirm...)

    Yeah, there may be a line wrapping issue there.

    Now I get that these is probably not an issue with somebody using a normal 80 char display (like syncterm) but I thought it would be a nice fix for those who are using a UTF8 terminal, since synchronet is working so well with one (while also accommodating CP437 users). ...*

    I'm not sure I see the relation between terminal width and character encoding (CP437/UTF8)?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Friday, August 16, 2019 11:14:51
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Thu Aug 15 2019 05:08 pm

    I'm not sure I see the relation between terminal width and character encoding (CP437/UTF8)?

    Cool, hopefully not.
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 18:55:43
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Fri Aug 16 2019 11:14 am

    I'm not sure I see the relation between terminal width and character
    encoding (CP437/UTF8)?

    Cool, hopefully not.

    You mentioned something about an 80 character terminal vs. those using a UTF8 terminal though? I wasn't quite sure what you were saying about the character encoding.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 19:37:41
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Fri Aug 16 2019 09:44 am

    So my suggestions is why is the text wrapped at 80 chars when composing a reply? - it would be great if it was "quoted" but using the available terminal width

    I did some testing, and it seems the issue I was concerned about is probably not as big of an issue as I thought. I just committed another update for SlyEdit which uses the whole width of the terminal for quoted lines.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 15, 2019 19:58:54
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Aug 15 2019 04:29 pm

    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Aug 15 2019 03:38 pm

    I'm a little confused now.. Recently we were discussing re-flowing >>> text in messages, and I thought you had said 80 characters is
    recommended for quote lines, but new text entered can be re-flowed?

    I may have said that at one time, but that's not the current
    thinking.

    I think it was just a couple weeks ago when you said that.. Has the
    current thinking changed in that short of time? ;)

    No. I don't think we've discussed the length of quote lines recently.

    There's a message in the Synchronet Discussion sub-board you wrote to me on August 5th (my BBS says the timestamp is 17:34:30 PDT) where you said:
    The Synchronet built-in word-wrap logic (and JS word_wrap() function) supports the automatic detection and re-wrapping/flowing of quoted text. It need to be limited to 80 characters.

    It was there where you said it needs to be limited to 80 characters. Or did you mean "doesn't need to be"?

    That was a typo I guess. I meant to say "It need not be limited to 80 characters".

    Also, when you say "quoted text", do you mean text that already includes a prefix (such as " > " or " Ni> ")?

    Right. The Synchronet wordwrap function (exposed in JS as word_wrap()) handles those quote prefixes while re-flowing.

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #103:
    The official Synchronet YouTube channel went live on May 6, 2019
    Norco, CA WX: 80.8F, 41.0% humidity, 5 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Friday, August 16, 2019 13:00:43
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Thu Aug 15 2019 06:55 pm

    You mentioned something about an 80 character terminal vs. those using a UTF8 terminal though? I wasn't quite sure what you were saying about the character encoding.

    Yeah, I dont believe that character encoding is an issue (for this problem).

    I guess I was trying to explain that a default user, using a default CP437 terminal (like Syncterm), wouldnt be experiencing this problem I'm describing.

    I use a CP437 terminal (SyncTerm), which is at defaults (80x25). This problem that I described doesnt impact me there (and probably wouldnt impact anybody), because (I'm guessing) you are assuming an 80 character environment and thus it displays expectantly.

    I also use a UTF8 terminal that is way wider than 80 characters - and quoted messages are wrapped at 80 characters, which I thought would be good if they werent. Especially addition to the message can use the full screen width, as I type it.
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Friday, August 16, 2019 13:03:03
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Thu Aug 15 2019 07:37 pm

    I did some testing, and it seems the issue I was concerned about is probably not as big of an issue as I thought. I just committed another update for SlyEdit which uses the whole width of the terminal for quoted lines.

    Awesome, thanks - I'll rebuild and try it out...

    Thank you...
    ...*

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Thursday, August 15, 2019 22:27:58
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Fri Aug 16 2019 01:03 pm

    I did some testing, and it seems the issue I was concerned about is
    probably not as big of an issue as I thought. I just committed
    another update for SlyEdit which uses the whole width of the
    terminal for quoted lines.

    Awesome, thanks - I'll rebuild and try it out...

    No problem. And SlyEdit is written in JavaScript - It doesn't need to be rebuilt.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, August 16, 2019 10:26:28
    On 2019 Aug 15 12:57:04, you wrote to Digital Man:

    I'd think the issue with quote lines is that quote lines have a prefix in front of them, so if the quote lines are re-flowed for a different width, the quote prefixes might end up in the middle of the lines.

    reflowed quotes should remove and replace the quote prefixes intelligently... they should also be aware of initialized prefixes as well as plain ones that get stacked with and without extraneous spaces between them...

    additionally, stacked initialized quote prefixes should be compressed instead of continually stacked...

    eg: FO> OB> AR>
    should be
    AR>>>

    but yes, it can get very messy when trying to intelligently compress stacked quote prefixes using different formats... especially with some using initials and others not...

    Even if Synchronet can intelligently re-flow quote lines with the prefixes, some users use offline readers that might not be so
    intelligent about re-flowing quote lines.

    it is most likely that offline readers and editors will never be updated for today's modern quoting methods... just look at usenet and their antiquated quoting method...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
    ... More cars per capita than occurrences of raw unbridled love.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, August 16, 2019 09:59:36
    On 2019 Aug 15 17:08:44, you wrote to Alterego:

    Now I get that these is probably not an issue with somebody using a
    normal 80 char display (like syncterm) but I thought it would be a
    nice fix for those who are using a UTF8 terminal, since synchronet is
    working so well with one (while also accommodating CP437 users).
    ...*

    I'm not sure I see the relation between terminal width and character encoding (CP437/UTF8)?

    the difference is in counting...

    CP437 is always one character == one byte == one terminal column
    UTF8 characters (better called glyphs) may be one, two, three or four bytes

    so with UTF8, you have to count the glyphs and not the bytes...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
    ... NWT Pro-Choice - I choose to hunt, trap, fish, eat meat and wear fur!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Friday, August 16, 2019 08:48:22
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Aug 16 2019 09:59 am


    On 2019 Aug 15 17:08:44, you wrote to Alterego:

    Now I get that these is probably not an issue with somebody using a
    normal 80 char display (like syncterm) but I thought it would be a
    nice fix for those who are using a UTF8 terminal, since synchronet is
    working so well with one (while also accommodating CP437 users).
    ...*

    I'm not sure I see the relation between terminal width and character encoding (CP437/UTF8)?

    the difference is in counting...

    CP437 is always one character == one byte == one terminal column
    UTF8 characters (better called glyphs) may be one, two, three or four bytes

    so with UTF8, you have to count the glyphs and not the bytes...

    Sort of, but that's not really relevant to the problem-discussion here.

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #5:
    BBS = Bulletin Board System
    Norco, CA WX: 63.9F, 92.0% humidity, 0 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Alterego@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Monday, August 19, 2019 21:39:05
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Nightfox to Alterego on Thu Aug 15 2019 07:37 pm

    I did some testing, and it seems the issue I was concerned about is probably not as big of an issue as I thought. I just committed another update for
    SlyEdit which uses the whole width of the terminal for quoted lines.

    So I forgot to mention - yay, thank you it works well.

    I've been typing away and I just released that it was fix - kudos, it works really well. :)
    ...*

    ... It's important that I NOT know.

    ---
    Synchronet Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Alterego on Monday, August 19, 2019 09:53:06
    Re: SLYEDIT and backspace
    By: Alterego to Nightfox on Mon Aug 19 2019 09:39 pm

    I did some testing, and it seems the issue I was concerned about is
    probably not as big of an issue as I thought. I just committed
    another update for SlyEdit which uses the whole width of the
    terminal for quoted lines.

    So I forgot to mention - yay, thank you it works well.

    I've been typing away and I just released that it was fix - kudos, it works really well. :) ...*

    Good to hear. Thanks for letting me know.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com