• Re: Adding VS Code to Pi

    From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to TCW on Fri Feb 12 20:19:52 2021
    On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:36:50 -0600, TCW wrote:

    This is probably somewhat related to the MS repo stuff but I thought I'd
    pass it along for interested parties: https://betanews.com/2021/02/12/microsoft-visual-studio-code-raspberry-
    pi/

    This has pretty much been done to death: those who don't want it have
    probably installed it already while those who don't will have made sure
    the M$ repo isn't in their sources.list because apparently lookups are
    slow.

    So, why have you brought it up again?


    --
    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From TCW@3:770/3 to All on Fri Feb 12 13:36:50 2021
    This is probably somewhat related to the MS repo stuff but I thought
    I'd pass it along for interested parties: https://betanews.com/2021/02/12/microsoft-visual-studio-code-raspberry-pi/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Sat Feb 13 00:08:24 2021
    On 12/02/2021 20:19, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:36:50 -0600, TCW wrote:

    This is probably somewhat related to the MS repo stuff but I thought I'd
    pass it along for interested parties:
    https://betanews.com/2021/02/12/microsoft-visual-studio-code-raspberry-
    pi/

    This has pretty much been done to death: those who don't want it have probably installed it already while those who don't will have made sure
    the M$ repo isn't in their sources.list because apparently lookups are
    slow.

    So, why have you brought it up again?


    I think the guy is talking about the VSCode, a code editor/light weight ide.

    I have used it a little to develop code for the rpi, it looks promising. However I develop on the PC and run the produced code on a headless rpi,
    as opposed to running VSCode native on a rpi desktop.

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  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 08:49:33 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:08:24 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 12/02/2021 20:19, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:36:50 -0600, TCW wrote:

    This is probably somewhat related to the MS repo stuff but I
    thought I'd pass it along for interested parties:
    https://betanews.com/2021/02/12/microsoft-visual-studio-code-raspberry-

    pi/

    This has pretty much been done to death: those who don't want it
    have probably installed it already while those who don't will have
    made sure the M$ repo isn't in their sources.list because
    apparently lookups are slow.

    So, why have you brought it up again?


    I think the guy is talking about the VSCode, a code editor/light
    weight ide.

    I have used it a little to develop code for the rpi, it looks
    promising. However I develop on the PC and run the produced code on a headless rpi, as opposed to running VSCode native on a rpi desktop.



    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi. Anyone
    who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will surely want to
    use the real thing on its native Windows, and cross-compile.

    The Pi4 is now fairly powerful, but that's in comparison to phones and
    earlier Pis, not compared to a recent workstation or expensive laptop.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Feb 13 09:57:25 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:33 +0000
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi. Anyone
    who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will surely want to
    use the real thing on its native Windows, and cross-compile.

    The Pi4 is now fairly powerful, but that's in comparison to phones and earlier Pis, not compared to a recent workstation or expensive laptop.

    Compared to most of the machines I've developed software on the Pi4
    is a supercomputer! It makes the finest workstation ever produced by Sun, Apollo or even SGI look like a toy. It is a sad testimony to bloat that you find it inadequate to run an IDE.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tilt from Arch@3:770/3 to All on Sat Feb 13 10:38:50 2021
    Joe in data 13/2/2021 09:49 ha scritto:

    I think the guy is talking about the VSCode, a code editor/light
    weight ide.

    I have used it a little to develop code for the rpi, it looks
    promising. However I develop on the PC and run the produced code on a
    headless rpi, as opposed to running VSCode native on a rpi desktop.



    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi. Anyone
    who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will surely want to
    use the real thing on its native Windows, and cross-compile.

    VS Code is Electron based, so I'm not so sure we can define it
    native on Windows.


    --
    Tilt

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  • From Adrian Caspersz@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 10:23:03 2021
    On 13/02/2021 09:57, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:33 +0000
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi. Anyone
    who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will surely want to
    use the real thing on its native Windows, and cross-compile.
    The Pi4 is now fairly powerful, but that's in comparison to phones and
    earlier Pis, not compared to a recent workstation or expensive laptop.

    Compared to most of the machines I've developed software on the Pi4
    is a supercomputer! It makes the finest workstation ever produced by Sun, Apollo or even SGI look like a toy. It is a sad testimony to bloat that you find it inadequate to run an IDE.


    VSCode, I would not run on a slow Pi with limited memory.
    Unless it's a small project.

    The interface features intellisence features that in the background may
    cause foreground sluggishness, if you are strapped for memory. Could say typical bloated microsoft, but worthwhile persevering with. The built-in
    Git support is really good.

    There are plenty of second user PC's below £100/$100 that are more than capable. Lenovo make really nice tiny PC things like the M73, M710q etc....

    I mentioned the https://theia-ide.org/ project (as it's VSCode based,
    but open source). I actually run that on a M73 (Core i3 2.9GHz), and can
    access and code on it fast on anything that runs a web browser.

    --
    Adrian C

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Adrian Caspersz on Sat Feb 13 10:38:49 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:23:03 +0000
    Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> wrote:

    On 13/02/2021 09:57, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:33 +0000
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi. Anyone
    who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will surely want to
    use the real thing on its native Windows, and cross-compile.
    The Pi4 is now fairly powerful, but that's in comparison to phones and
    earlier Pis, not compared to a recent workstation or expensive laptop.

    Compared to most of the machines I've developed software on the
    Pi4 is a supercomputer! It makes the finest workstation ever produced
    by Sun, Apollo or even SGI look like a toy. It is a sad testimony to
    bloat that you find it inadequate to run an IDE.


    VSCode, I would not run on a slow Pi with limited memory.
    Unless it's a small project.

    You can get 8GB on a Pi4, if that's not enough then it's a very sad testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after
    had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 11:17:41 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:57:25 +0000
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:33 +0000
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi.
    Anyone who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will
    surely want to use the real thing on its native Windows, and
    cross-compile.

    The Pi4 is now fairly powerful, but that's in comparison to phones
    and earlier Pis, not compared to a recent workstation or expensive
    laptop.

    Compared to most of the machines I've developed software on
    the Pi4 is a supercomputer! It makes the finest workstation ever
    produced by Sun, Apollo or even SGI look like a toy.

    It is a sad
    testimony to bloat that you find it inadequate to run an IDE.


    I didn't say that. Given a choice of development environments, I would
    not expect the PI, even a 4, to be preferred.

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 11:27:23 2021
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    You can get 8GB on a Pi4, if that's not enough then it's a very sad testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after
    had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    EMACS: 'Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping' was once the byword for bloat. Looks like there is a new pretender to the crown.

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that
    *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but interested in others.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to Tilt from Arch on Sat Feb 13 12:15:54 2021
    On 13-02-2021 11:38, Tilt from Arch wrote:
    Joe in data 13/2/2021 09:49 ha scritto:
    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi. Anyone
    who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will surely want to
    use the real thing on its native Windows, and cross-compile.

    VS Code is Electron based, so I'm not so sure we can define it
    native on Windows.

    Yeah, I'm sure we cannot. Joe may be confusing Visual Studio (the
    Windows IDE) and Visual Studio Code (the multiplatform, Electron-based
    editor).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 12:52:54 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:29:11 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 13/02/2021 11:17, Joe wrote:

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?

    Split the difference - ARM goes back to 1985, 36 years old.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Feb 13 12:29:11 2021
    On 13/02/2021 11:17, Joe wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:57:25 +0000
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:33 +0000
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Yes, I wondered why anyone would actually write code on an RPi.
    Anyone who really wants to use VS rather than, say, emacs, will
    surely want to use the real thing on its native Windows, and
    cross-compile.

    The Pi4 is now fairly powerful, but that's in comparison to phones
    and earlier Pis, not compared to a recent workstation or expensive
    laptop.

    Compared to most of the machines I've developed software on
    the Pi4 is a supercomputer! It makes the finest workstation ever
    produced by Sun, Apollo or even SGI look like a toy.

    It is a sad
    testimony to bloat that you find it inadequate to run an IDE.


    I didn't say that. Given a choice of development environments, I would
    not expect the PI, even a 4, to be preferred.

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?

    Having said that my Arm code looks remarkably similar to my x64 code, I
    try not to let a different OS or CPU get in the way of my uniformity. I
    let other people to worry about that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 13:39:59 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:29:11 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?


    Sorry, yes, it was 32 years ago. Memory failing...

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Feb 13 14:23:31 2021
    On 13/02/2021 13:39, Joe wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:29:11 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?


    Sorry, yes, it was 32 years ago. Memory failing...


    It's ok, as long as you don't tell me you had an Archimedes. Even 32
    years on the jealousy is still real and I would have to hate you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 15:32:45 2021
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
    On 13/02/2021 13:39, Joe wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:29:11 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?


    Sorry, yes, it was 32 years ago. Memory failing...

    First ARM design 1983, first silicon 1985. So I take 38 ;-)

    It's ok, as long as you don't tell me you had an Archimedes. Even 32
    years on the jealousy is still real and I would have to hate you.

    Cough.

    Depends what you mean by Archimedes, but I probably have about eight.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 15:42:16 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:23:31 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    It's ok, as long as you don't tell me you had an Archimedes. Even 32
    years on the jealousy is still real and I would have to hate you.

    32 years ago there weren't many options, Archimedes (just out), BBC co-proc, involved at the start of Newton.

    The Archimedes was special though, it was so much more powerful
    than anything else on the market short of high end (read eye wateringly expensive) workstations. There's never been anything so outstanding since.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 16:22:24 2021
    In message <s08ncs$din$1@dont-email.me>
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 13/02/2021 13:39, Joe wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:29:11 +0000 Pancho
    <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?


    Sorry, yes, it was 32 years ago. Memory failing...


    It's ok, as long as you don't tell me you had an Archimedes. Even 32
    years on the jealousy is still real and I would have to hate you.

    I never owned an Archimedes - I came in at the A3000, which was after
    Acorn had stopped using the Archimedes trademark. But my main desktop
    is a Raspberry Pi running RISC OS. This build is just over a month
    old, which reminds me it's time I updated it again.

    David

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to David Higton on Sat Feb 13 18:00:31 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:22:24 +0000, David Higton wrote:

    This build is just over a month old,
    which reminds me it's time I updated it again.

    A weekly update is better - there have been and are quite a lot of
    security holes being discovered and fixed recently.

    My personal recommendation: turn off any automatic updates you might have configured and every week make a backup using rsync [1] followed
    immediately by a Raspbian update and reboot.

    [1] use rsync because its about the fastest backup program. On an RPi
    using a SD filing on an 8-18GB card system you may as well back up
    everything, but really, all you need to backup is /home *provided that*
    you keep copies of every file you change in /etc in a special directory structure in /home or in your usual login.

    I use a pair of 1TB WD Essentials portable USB drives for two generations
    of backups, but of course ymmv - you can equally use a couple of SD
    cards, but they may fail silently - while a portable SSD or HDD is more
    likely to give you warnings, particularly if you fsck it as the last
    action in every backup run. Note:

    - Write a shell script to automate the backup process - makes life a
    lot easier
    - Using a set of biggish backup devices and makes it easy to back up
    several systems onto a single device set of HDDS or SSDs.
    - Always keep the backup set offline, preferably in a firesafe or in a
    separate building or garden shed.

    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Adrian Caspersz@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 18:09:30 2021
    On 13/02/2021 10:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    VSCode, I would not run on a slow Pi with limited memory.
    Unless it's a small project.

    You can get 8GB on a Pi4,

    I've actually got a 8GB pi 4 standing by for something. Completely
    forgot what.... (whoops)

    if that's not enough then it's a very sad
    testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after
    had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    True. Think though the safest minimum now is to have some sort of source control system while ye are hacking, or continuous backup and some 'order'

    In the early days I didn't have that, and lived (in the "dev" land of MS Access) with many backups to removable media. Zip 100 disks were my
    mainstay for going off-network, wasn't posh enough then for getting down
    with MS Visual SourceSafe.

    -&-

    I recently abandoned running VScode on a development machine that had
    2GB available for the process. Slow, like molasses ...

    The project was coding in PHP for a remote application server that would
    be eventually a documentation search engine (Apache Solr).

    Then when I found that the Debian app server had some spare memory doing nothing, I hosted VScode over there as well and neatly exported X11
    window "frames" back to the dev machine, which to all purposes looked
    perfectly integrated into its Debian desktop.

    Even better, I can host those X11 windows over VPN to other desktops
    remote, like them in the pre-covid office which I badly miss these days ...

    But that was life before I found Theia, now I just use a browser.

    --
    Adrian C

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to All on Sat Feb 13 18:43:33 2021

    VSCode, I would not run on a slow Pi with limited memory.
    Unless it's a small project.

    You can get 8GB on a Pi4, if that's not enough then it's a very sad testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after
    had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.


    But remember Windows tends to use far more memory to do the same
    thing than most linux distros. So windows users have a different sense
    of memory needs than linux users.

    Jim
    p.s. I am not knocking anything with this comment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Theo on Sat Feb 13 18:44:28 2021
    On 2021-02-13, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    You can get 8GB on a Pi4, if that's not enough then it's a very sad >> testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after
    had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    EMACS: 'Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping' was once the byword for bloat. Looks like there is a new pretender to the crown.

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but interested in others.

    Emacs is now a gui editor!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Feb 13 19:12:37 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:23:31 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 13/02/2021 13:39, Joe wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:29:11 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    Not that I've done any ARM coding for more than forty years.


    ARM is only about 30 years old?


    Sorry, yes, it was 32 years ago. Memory failing...


    It's ok, as long as you don't tell me you had an Archimedes. Even 32
    years on the jealousy is still real and I would have to hate you.

    How else would I have had an ARM to play with? Other than the second
    processor for the Beeb, and I did know someone who had one of those, I
    think he had every second processor. He also got an early Archimedes,
    with the Arthur operating system. I waited for RiscOS and bought one
    with a massive megabyte of memory, and added a 40MB hard drive. Later
    upgraded to ARM3.

    The nice thing about the Acorns was a decent BASIC with a built-in
    assembler. I eventually bought a PC and was astounded that I had to
    *buy* a useful programming environment, all it came with was GW BASIC,
    which wasn't great. I took the Delphi path, which is why I've never
    more than dabbled in C.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Sat Feb 13 19:03:26 2021
    Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
    On 2021-02-13, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    You can get 8GB on a Pi4, if that's not enough then it's a very sad
    testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after >> had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    EMACS: 'Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping' was once the byword for bloat. Looks like there is a new pretender to the crown.

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but interested in others.

    Emacs is now a gui editor!

    ... and I use a GUI version of vi (and it's not gvim either).

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Adrian Caspersz on Sat Feb 13 19:03:08 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:09:30 +0000
    Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> wrote:

    On 13/02/2021 10:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    if that's not enough then it's a very sad
    testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust
    after had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    True. Think though the safest minimum now is to have some sort of source control system while ye are hacking, or continuous backup and some 'order'

    I've been using source code control as a minimum since that meant
    SCCS and shell scripts (mid 1980s), even coming bang up to date with git doesn't eat much resources.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Sat Feb 13 19:48:05 2021
    In message <s0943v$of1$1@dont-email.me>
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:22:24 +0000, David Higton wrote:

    This build is just over a month old, which reminds me it's time I updated it again.

    A weekly update is better - there have been and are quite a lot of
    security holes being discovered and fixed recently.

    My personal recommendation: turn off any automatic updates you might have configured and every week make a backup using rsync [1] followed
    immediately by a Raspbian update and reboot.

    [1] use rsync because its about the fastest backup program. On an RPi
    using a SD filing on an 8-18GB card system you may as well back up everything, but really, all you need to backup is /home *provided that*
    you keep copies of every file you change in /etc in a special directory structure in /home or in your usual login.

    I use a pair of 1TB WD Essentials portable USB drives for two generations
    of backups, but of course ymmv - you can equally use a couple of SD cards, but they may fail silently - while a portable SSD or HDD is more likely to give you warnings, particularly if you fsck it as the last action in every backup run. Note:

    - Write a shell script to automate the backup process - makes life a
    lot easier
    - Using a set of biggish backup devices and makes it easy to back up
    several systems onto a single device set of HDDS or SSDs.
    - Always keep the backup set offline, preferably in a firesafe or in a
    separate building or garden shed.

    I don't think you read what I posted, Martin. I use RISC OS.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Feb 13 19:52:26 2021
    In message <20210213191237.45fb83be@jresid.jretrading.com>
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    The nice thing about the Acorns was a decent BASIC with a built-in
    assembler. I eventually bought a PC and was astounded that I had to
    *buy* a useful programming environment, all it came with was GW BASIC,
    which wasn't great. I took the Delphi path, which is why I've never
    more than dabbled in C.

    Get yourself a Raspberry Pi, install RISC OS on it, and enjoy those
    pleasures again - but the OS and the BASIC have had the benefit of
    many years of improvement since the Archimedes days.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to David Higton on Sat Feb 13 20:12:24 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:48:05 +0000, David Higton wrote:

    In message <s0943v$of1$1@dont-email.me>
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:22:24 +0000, David Higton wrote:

    This build is just over a month old, which reminds me it's time I
    updated it again.

    A weekly update is better - there have been and are quite a lot of
    security holes being discovered and fixed recently.

    My personal recommendation: turn off any automatic updates you might
    have configured and every week make a backup using rsync [1] followed
    immediately by a Raspbian update and reboot.

    [1] use rsync because its about the fastest backup program. On an RPi
    using a SD filing on an 8-18GB card system you may as well back up
    everything, but really, all you need to backup is /home *provided that*
    you keep copies of every file you change in /etc in a special directory
    structure in /home or in your usual login.

    I use a pair of 1TB WD Essentials portable USB drives for two
    generations of backups, but of course ymmv - you can equally use a
    couple of SD cards,
    but they may fail silently - while a portable SSD or HDD is more
    likely to give you warnings, particularly if you fsck it as the last
    action in every backup run. Note:

    - Write a shell script to automate the backup process - makes life a
    lot easier
    - Using a set of biggish backup devices and makes it easy to back up
    several systems onto a single device set of HDDS or SSDs.
    - Always keep the backup set offline, preferably in a firesafe or in a
    separate building or garden shed.

    I don't think you read what I posted, Martin. I use RISC OS.

    I missed RiscOS. Apologies, but if you can port rsync to it, that could
    be worth doing, for the backup speed you'll gain.

    Apart from that, what I had to say about update frequencies and
    (especially) syncing system updates with backups and not trusting backups
    to SD cards should apply regardless of the OS: I learnt most of that from working with mainframes and early UNIX systems and find its equally
    relevant for systems Linux or any other OS.

    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to David Higton on Sat Feb 13 20:15:24 2021
    On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:52:26 GMT
    David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

    In message <20210213191237.45fb83be@jresid.jretrading.com>
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    The nice thing about the Acorns was a decent BASIC with a built-in assembler. I eventually bought a PC and was astounded that I had to
    *buy* a useful programming environment, all it came with was GW
    BASIC, which wasn't great. I took the Delphi path, which is why
    I've never more than dabbled in C.

    Get yourself a Raspberry Pi, install RISC OS on it, and enjoy those
    pleasures again - but the OS and the BASIC have had the benefit of
    many years of improvement since the Archimedes days.


    I understand you, and I know RiscOS is available for the Pi, but I
    don't think I could go back now. The enormous memory, being able to run
    (most) BBC games much more smoothly, the speed of that first hard
    drive... none of those things mean much now.

    I assume you can no longer cause mayhem by dropping a directory into
    itself: I did that accidentally, turned off the power after the machine
    hung, and found an (apparently) infinite series of nesting... I fixed
    it, studying the filesystem and writing a recursive bit of BASIC to
    plumb the depths of the nest and delete it level by level (the OS
    wouldn't touch it), but I wasn't too impressed that such a thing was
    possible.

    OK, RiscOS in those days was half a megabyte of ROM (no bugs allowed).
    I remember my first PC: Win95 was about 25MB in size, and it did more
    than the RiscOS of the day, but to be fair, not fifty times as much.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Feb 13 20:27:53 2021
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    The nice thing about the Acorns was a decent BASIC with a built-in
    assembler. I eventually bought a PC and was astounded that I had to
    *buy* a useful programming environment, all it came with was GW BASIC,
    which wasn't great. I took the Delphi path, which is why I've never
    more than dabbled in C.

    I wonder why I moved to Linux!

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Phigan@1:105/82 to Theo on Mon Feb 15 12:11:31 2021
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Theo to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 2021 11:27 am

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but

    Have you seen Geany?
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: fluxcap.synchro.net:5023 - Portland, OR (1:105/82)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Phigan on Mon Feb 15 21:56:36 2021
    Phigan <nospam.Phigan@f1.n770.z1104.fidonet.org> wrote:
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Theo to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 2021 11:27 am

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but

    Have you seen Geany?

    I've used it before. What's notable about it? I didn't really explore, but
    it looked to me fairly basic - like a slightly fancier version of gedit.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Theo on Tue Feb 16 02:24:59 2021
    On 15/02/2021 21:56, Theo wrote:
    Phigan <nospam.Phigan@f1.n770.z1104.fidonet.org> wrote:
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Theo to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 2021 11:27 am

    > Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that >> > *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but

    Have you seen Geany?

    I've used it before. What's notable about it? I didn't really explore, but it looked to me fairly basic - like a slightly fancier version of gedit.

    well it understands blocks in various languages and highlights things appropiately.

    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.



    Theo



    --
    “It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
    authorities are wrong.”

    ― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Tue Feb 16 08:17:53 2021
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o:
    [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Nikolaj Lazic on Tue Feb 16 09:28:39 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by preference'.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Joe on Tue Feb 16 10:54:57 2021
    On 16/02/2021 09:28, Joe wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?

    Doesn't do drop caps, automatic index, illustrations, and emphasised text.

    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    I wouldn't write a book in Latex, either


    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by preference'.

    Exactly. Why make more of a rod for your back then you have to.


    --
    “It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
    intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
    futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
    we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
    power-directed system of thought.”
    Sir Roger Scruton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Nikolaj Lazic on Tue Feb 16 10:56:08 2021
    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o:
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by
    preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to
    look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!


    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so
    they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position.

    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++ development
    from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much everyone switched.

    For Latex try TexStudio.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Tue Feb 16 10:39:55 2021
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o:
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to
    look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Feb 16 10:56:11 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    There's a 1300 page A4 sized reference book on my shelf that was prepared on an 80286 based XENIX machine[1] using sqtroff, shell scripts and vi. While this was being done that machine was also being used to maintain
    a database with two people doing data entry and another running regular
    queries and reports.

    [1] Not a PC clone - an Altos with a couple of 80186s acting like channle controllers on a mainframe.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Tue Feb 16 11:01:07 2021
    On 16/02/2021 10:56, Pancho wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o:
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by
    preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to
    look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!


    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so
    they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position.

    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++ development
    from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much everyone switched.

    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think
    anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly no
    TCP/IP - must have been over serial.


    For Latex try TexStudio.

    Must I?

    --
    "First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors."
    - George Orwell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Theo on Tue Feb 16 11:50:18 2021
    On 13/02/2021 11:27, Theo wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    You can get 8GB on a Pi4, if that's not enough then it's a very sad >> testimonial to bloat - some of the workstations we all used to lust after
    had as much as a thousandth of that much memory.

    EMACS: 'Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping' was once the byword for bloat. Looks like there is a new pretender to the crown.

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but interested in others.

    I've used qtCreator for C, C++ and Python (before I started using
    PyCharm), its editor works pretty well and you can set it up to build
    plain makefile or cmake projects as well as qt stuff.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Tue Feb 16 12:16:40 2021
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:09:02 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> napis'o:
    There's plenty of books written in LaTeX it's not a bad option,
    better than troff in many ways - but both were designed for the job of producing books and they're pretty good at it. These day's I'd be more inclined to use docbook and forget all about the layout until print time.

    That is exactly my point. Final layout is just the final step after
    structuring your tekst. And LaTeX does that really nice.
    Just few corrections and that's it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Feb 16 11:09:02 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:54:57 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Doesn't do drop caps, automatic index, illustrations, and emphasised text.

    Sure it does, you just have to use the right markup.

    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    I wouldn't write a book in Latex, either

    There's plenty of books written in LaTeX it's not a bad option,
    better than troff in many ways - but both were designed for the job of producing books and they're pretty good at it. These day's I'd be more
    inclined to use docbook and forget all about the layout until print time.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Feb 16 12:18:41 2021
    On 16/02/2021 11:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:56, Pancho wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o: >>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by
    preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to
    look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!


    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so
    they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position.

    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++
    development from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much
    everyone switched.

    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think
    anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly no TCP/IP - must have been over serial.



    One of the guys I worked with wrote an emacs like editor for DEC, when
    we moved from VMS to ultrix/sparcs he used vi, even after he got a unix
    port of his editor.

    The funny thing coding full time with vi is that my fingers didn't
    forget it even after decades of not using it. I found it hard to
    verbalise the keys I was using but my fingers just seemed to know.


    For Latex try TexStudio.

    Must I?


    Latex is cool, If you have a better editor I'm all ears.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Tue Feb 16 19:15:42 2021
    On 16 Feb 2021 at 12:18:41 GMT, Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com>
    wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 11:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:56, Pancho wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o: >>>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by >>>>> preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to >>>> look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!


    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so
    they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position.

    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++
    development from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much
    everyone switched.

    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think
    anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly no
    TCP/IP - must have been over serial.

    One of the guys I worked with wrote an emacs like editor for DEC, when
    we moved from VMS to ultrix/sparcs he used vi, even after he got a unix
    port of his editor.

    The funny thing coding full time with vi is that my fingers didn't
    forget it even after decades of not using it. I found it hard to
    verbalise the keys I was using but my fingers just seemed to know.

    Daer oh dear. Hopeless, isn't it. I remember - and it must be 30 years ago now - when the Lab I worked at got a few unix machines. I was given an Ultrix box and told to get on with doing something with it. So I started to use it for network monitoring using SNMP.

    Previously, most of us had been using editors that made various uses of ASCII terminals - Ann Arbor Ambassadors mostly that could give you 43 lines on the screen and pretend to be full-screen by using cursor addressing.

    So everyone assumed we'd continue doing much the same, and the debate turned onto which editor everyone would be trained to use under unix. Would it be vi, emacs, jove, something else. I got bored waiting for this debate to conclude, then found the Ultrix box had dxnotepad. So I spent 5 minutes learning how to use a mouse-based editor, and got on with writing large amounts of C. Six months later I found that the debate about which editor to use had made no progress, so I carried on using dxnotepad, which although not a patch on something like BBedit, was still better than any ASCII-terminal-based junk,
    all of which is obsolete. Why are they obsolete? Because they are bad tools. They require you to remember stuff just to use them. Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Feb 16 20:12:35 2021
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 19:15:42 +0000, TimS wrote:

    A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    Quite right. Every editor should have a built-in, context sensitive help system. However, every Linux user should have a basic knowledge of vi
    because of its ability the use 'hjkl' as cursor keys. This makes it
    usable in an almost totally borked system and that knowledge may be
    useful of you managed to achieve full borkage. It also has excellent,
    fast search&replace capabilities.

    That said, my preferred text editor is microEmacs because its fast,
    doesn't require me to use a mouse when editing and I've never hit its
    limit for the number of files it can edit at once. microEmacs and tidy
    are my preferred way of working with HTML pages, microemacs and make for
    C programming and microemacs and ant for Java.

    vile is the answer! :-) It's "vi like emacs", it was originally
    developed from the microemacs engine I think. It has been my editor of
    choice since some time around the late 1980s.

    There are implemntations of vile for many platforms, I'm now mostly
    Linux based but in the past I used it on Solaris, Ultrix, various
    MS-Windows versions, etc.

    Simply being able to use the same editor *everywhere* is incredibly
    useful. I use it for composing E-Mail, editing wiki pages, even
    filling forms in Firefox.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to TimS on Tue Feb 16 20:02:26 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 19:15:42 +0000, TimS wrote:

    A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    Quite right. Every editor should have a built-in, context sensitive help system. However, every Linux user should have a basic knowledge of vi
    because of its ability the use 'hjkl' as cursor keys. This makes it
    usable in an almost totally borked system and that knowledge may be
    useful of you managed to achieve full borkage. It also has excellent,
    fast search&replace capabilities.

    That said, my preferred text editor is microEmacs because its fast,
    doesn't require me to use a mouse when editing and I've never hit its
    limit for the number of files it can edit at once. microEmacs and tidy
    are my preferred way of working with HTML pages, microemacs and make for
    C programming and microemacs and ant for Java.

    I won't use graphical editors because the constant grabbing for the mouse
    is a real slow-down. Similarly, although my preferred mail client is
    Evolution and I normally use OfficeLibre for fancy documents which are to
    be printed of converted to PDF, my absolute favourite wordprocessor would
    still be Microsoft Word for DOS because, again, you could do everything
    without taking your hands from the keyboard and its use of function keys
    was really well thought out - much better that the scrambled mess that
    was WordPerfect - and Word was faster too.


    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to TimS on Tue Feb 16 20:44:19 2021
    On 16 Feb 2021 19:15:42 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    I got bored waiting for this debate to conclude,
    then found the Ultrix box had dxnotepad. So I spent 5 minutes learning
    how to use a mouse-based editor, and got on with writing large amounts of
    C.

    That's fine and dandy when you have the option of running a GUI app
    on the box with the code that needs editing - this tends to be problematic
    when the box in question is on another continent (or even just in another building), at which point being good with a terminal based editor is
    helpful.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From aen@spamtrap.com@3:770/3 to theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk on Tue Feb 16 22:11:57 2021
    On 15 Feb 2021 21:56:36 +0000 (GMT), Theo
    <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    Phigan <nospam.Phigan@f1.n770.z1104.fidonet.org> wrote:
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Theo to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 2021 11:27 am

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that >> > *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but

    Have you seen Geany?

    I've used it before. What's notable about it? I didn't really explore, but >it looked to me fairly basic - like a slightly fancier version of gedit.

    It's much more than that. It is a fully-fledged IDE for source code.
    You get syntax-highlighting, you can start a compiler, assembler and
    linker, or call up the makefile. Then you can start the program, or
    call it up in a debbuger. All very customizable. The rules for most programming languages are already built in, and if you use a new one
    you can write them yourself.
    --
    aen

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Feb 16 21:30:17 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:02:26 -0000 (UTC)
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    my absolute favourite wordprocessor would
    still be Microsoft Word for DOS because, again, you could do everything without taking your hands from the keyboard and its use of function keys
    was really well thought out - much better that the scrambled mess that
    was WordPerfect - and Word was faster too.

    I vastly preferred WordPerfect - provided you had a keyboard with function keys to the left and control next to A - then that apparent mess
    turns into a really efficient layout that was surprisingly easy to remember.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Tue Feb 16 22:16:19 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:12:35 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

    Simply being able to use the same editor *everywhere* is incredibly
    useful. I use it for composing E-Mail, editing wiki pages, even filling forms in Firefox.

    Couldn't agree more with your 'same editor everywhere' approach. I first
    saw microemacs when it was the standard editor on OS9/68000, liked it and
    found the source, which I've recompiled on several Unices, Windows PCs
    (when I still used them) and, of course, Linux (both Fedora and Raspbian).


    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Tue Feb 16 17:07:05 2021
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Ahem A Rivet's Shot to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Feb 16 2021 11:09 am

    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:54:57 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Doesn't do drop caps, automatic index, illustrations, and emphasised text.

    Sure it does, you just have to use the right markup.

    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    I wouldn't write a book in Latex, either

    There's plenty of books written in LaTeX it's not a bad option,
    better than troff in many ways - but both were designed for the job of producing bo
    and they're pretty good at it. These day's I'd be more
    inclined to use docbook and forget all about the layout until print time.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN
    | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    For the record, I am using Wordgrinder for books and short stories. You get to write
    the piece using generic styles (header 1, paragraph, blockquote, etc) and then you can
    export it to easily parseable formats.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Tue Feb 16 22:24:49 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 21:30:17 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:02:26 -0000 (UTC)
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    my absolute favourite wordprocessor would still be Microsoft Word for
    DOS because, again, you could do everything without taking your hands
    from the keyboard and its use of function keys was really well thought
    out - much better that the scrambled mess that was WordPerfect - and
    Word was faster too.

    I vastly preferred WordPerfect - provided you had a keyboard with function keys to the left and control next to A - then that apparent
    mess turns into a really efficient layout that was surprisingly easy to remember.

    The thing I really liked about Word for DOS was stuff like one of the
    function keys, F4 IIRC, which did more each time you hit it: 1st click
    selected the whole word, 2nd click selected the whole sentence and 3rd
    click selected the whole paragraph. Plus, it didn't have or need the
    'reveal codes' mode that everybody needed use to disentangle a WordPerfect document sooner or later. Of course, I'm talking about the original WP
    for DOS with its famous almost blank initial screen which reduced more
    than one secretary to tears, not the Windows version.


    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to aen@spamtrap.com on Wed Feb 17 08:56:40 2021
    aen@spamtrap.com wrote:
    On 15 Feb 2021 21:56:36 +0000 (GMT), Theo
    <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    Phigan <nospam.Phigan@f1.n770.z1104.fidonet.org> wrote:
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Theo to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Feb 13 2021 11:27 am

    Anyone have any recommendations for modern open-source GUI editors that >> > *don't* use Electron as a framework? I've been trying out Onivim but >>
    Have you seen Geany?

    I've used it before. What's notable about it? I didn't really explore, but >it looked to me fairly basic - like a slightly fancier version of gedit.

    It's much more than that. It is a fully-fledged IDE for source code.
    You get syntax-highlighting, you can start a compiler, assembler and
    linker, or call up the makefile. Then you can start the program, or
    call it up in a debbuger. All very customizable. The rules for most programming languages are already built in, and if you use a new one
    you can write them yourself.

    I've never understood the big advantage of this sort of IDE over doing
    each of those things (edit, compile, run/test) in separate terminal
    windows. I have a syntax highlighting editor that runs in a terminal.

    Again the *huge* advantage of running everything in terminal windows
    running a (bash) shell is that one is using the same working
    environment for everything, whether your compiling and testing code,
    doing some housekeeping, checking E-Mails or whatever.

    I use one editor everywhere and terminal windows running bash
    everywhere.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tauno Voipio@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 12:39:37 2021
    On 16.2.21 21.15, TimS wrote:

    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*?
    What are these guys smoking?

    So what?

    Emacs manual (emacs 7x9.pdf) is 651 pages.

    --

    -TV

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Nikolaj Lazic on Wed Feb 17 10:48:10 2021
    On 16/02/2021 12:16, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:09:02 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> napis'o:
    There's plenty of books written in LaTeX it's not a bad option,
    better than troff in many ways - but both were designed for the job of
    producing books and they're pretty good at it. These day's I'd be more
    inclined to use docbook and forget all about the layout until print time.

    That is exactly my point. Final layout is just the final step after structuring your tekst. And LaTeX does that really nice.
    Just few corrections and that's it.

    yup. Latex is ok for tech stuff. But you can use page layout stuff like
    scribus ...I am writing a book in Libre office, because it has just
    enough features to do the job I want to do and its free, and I never
    used Latex enough to be handy with it, and Scribus is overkill

    I use Scribus for adverts and brochures and the like where page
    presentation is important. Geany for code. Lire office for not too
    technical docs and books and pluma for unstructured plain text.
    For editing config files on non GUI clients vi or joe.

    *shrug* i ain't got religion, just a selection of imperfect tools


    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Wed Feb 17 10:51:37 2021
    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    On 16 Feb 2021 at 12:18:41 GMT, Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 11:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:56, Pancho wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o: >>>>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by >>>>>> preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to >>>>> look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!


    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so >>>> they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position. >>>>
    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++
    development from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much
    everyone switched.

    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think
    anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly no >>> TCP/IP - must have been over serial.

    One of the guys I worked with wrote an emacs like editor for DEC, when
    we moved from VMS to ultrix/sparcs he used vi, even after he got a unix
    port of his editor.

    The funny thing coding full time with vi is that my fingers didn't
    forget it even after decades of not using it. I found it hard to
    verbalise the keys I was using but my fingers just seemed to know.

    Daer oh dear. Hopeless, isn't it. I remember - and it must be 30 years ago now
    - when the Lab I worked at got a few unix machines. I was given an Ultrix box and told to get on with doing something with it. So I started to use it for network monitoring using SNMP.

    Previously, most of us had been using editors that made various uses of ASCII terminals - Ann Arbor Ambassadors mostly that could give you 43 lines on the screen and pretend to be full-screen by using cursor addressing.

    So everyone assumed we'd continue doing much the same, and the debate turned onto which editor everyone would be trained to use under unix. Would it be vi,
    emacs, jove, something else. I got bored waiting for this debate to conclude, then found the Ultrix box had dxnotepad. So I spent 5 minutes learning how to use a mouse-based editor, and got on with writing large amounts of C. Six months later I found that the debate about which editor to use had made no progress, so I carried on using dxnotepad, which although not a patch on something like BBedit, was still better than any ASCII-terminal-based junk, all of which is obsolete. Why are they obsolete? Because they are bad tools. They require you to remember stuff just to use them. Even vi has a manual that
    is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    I don't remember ever reading vi's manual.
    I just asked the bloke next to me. I think someone printed up a card
    with the basic cursors on it

    Someone else showed me basic regex search and replace and that's as far
    as I needed to go to write probably a million pages of code


    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Wed Feb 17 10:54:18 2021
    On 16/02/2021 22:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Plus, it didn't have or need the
    'reveal codes' mode that everybody needed use to disentangle a WordPerfect document sooner or later.

    A huge loss, since it was impossible to disentangle Word documents *at
    all* without simply deleting and staring over...


    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 10:56:59 2021
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
    I've never understood the big advantage of this sort of IDE over doing
    each of those things (edit, compile, run/test) in separate terminal
    windows. I have a syntax highlighting editor that runs in a terminal.

    Again the *huge* advantage of running everything in terminal windows
    running a (bash) shell is that one is using the same working
    environment for everything, whether your compiling and testing code,
    doing some housekeeping, checking E-Mails or whatever.

    Somebody asked what I'm looking for. That's a good question. Currently I
    do what you say - edit most things in a terminal window, because that environment is universal whether I'm editing locally or remotely (I probably
    do >70% of my editing remotely, including most mail and Usenet).

    So I suppose what I'm after is something that makes a compelling reason for editing locally, where I will put up with the hassles of bringing the files
    to me because it gives me something extra.

    I'm not terribly bothered by being able to compile stuff from an editor - on
    a terminal the shell is always the 'quit' keystroke away, and I can flip
    back to the editor with up-arrow and Enter. So that's a non-problem as far
    as I'm concerned. It is nice to be able to compile when looking at the
    code, but two terminal windows give me that.

    One good reason for a GUI editor is mouse-based selection. I much prefer
    the keyboard, but sometimes you're moving big chunks of text around (say refactoring code or a document) and it's easier to point and drag than lots
    of cursor manipulation (start-marker, end-marker, cut, move, paste, etc)
    Almost very GUI editor does that (with the exception of gvim, which is a bit weird) so it's not really a discriminating factor.

    One thing I do appreciate though is being able to operate everything
    smoothly from the keyboard when I don't need the mouse. One wordprocessor required me to use the menu shortcuts (something like Alt-E-F-S for
    strikeout) and that was awkward. Yes there was a button on the toolbar, but switching keyboard-mouse-keyboard is time consuming.

    Syntax highlighting is also a given, but with a wide set of rules. I opened
    a device tree .dts file in geany yesterday and was surprised it didn't highlight. It did highlight C code.

    Another desirable feature would be code navigation - click on a function
    call to go to its definition, bring up the API documentation in some kind of popup, grep-style search where you get a list of results and can click on a result to go to that file.

    Similarly code folding - being able to collapse functions (or sections in
    your Latex or whatever) so it's easier to skip over those you aren't working on. Saves scrollbar time.

    Another useful feature is debugger integration - not just running gdb alongside, but being able to set breakpoints with clicks on source lines,
    when you get to the breakpoints being able to see the tree of variables in a window that you can navigate by mouse, rather than typing out search
    patterns at a gdb prompt.

    Basically this sounds something a bit more IDE like but not tied to a particular language/toolchain - often IDEs are strongly tied to particular environments (Java, embedded, etc) and it feels awkward if you're using them for something else, so you end up flitting between multiple IDEs. I suppose I'm looking for an editor with IDE features rather than an IDE with editor features.

    Answers on a postcard...

    Theo

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 10:57:59 2021
    On 17 Feb 2021 at 10:51:37 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    On 16 Feb 2021 at 12:18:41 GMT, Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com>
    wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 11:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:56, Pancho wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> napis'o:
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
    Nikolaj Lazic <nlazicBEZ_OVOGA@mudrac.ffzg.hr> wrote:

    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher >>>>>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o: [snip]
    But what do you mean by 'editor'

    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.

    Why not?
    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.

    You could probably do that in Edlin.

    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by >>>>>>> preference'.

    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs to
    look right... as a proper document or a book.
    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!


    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so >>>>> they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position. >>>>>
    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++
    development from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much
    everyone switched.

    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think >>>> anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly no
    TCP/IP - must have been over serial.

    One of the guys I worked with wrote an emacs like editor for DEC, when
    we moved from VMS to ultrix/sparcs he used vi, even after he got a unix >>> port of his editor.

    The funny thing coding full time with vi is that my fingers didn't
    forget it even after decades of not using it. I found it hard to
    verbalise the keys I was using but my fingers just seemed to know.

    Daer oh dear. Hopeless, isn't it. I remember - and it must be 30 years ago now
    - when the Lab I worked at got a few unix machines. I was given an Ultrix box
    and told to get on with doing something with it. So I started to use it for >> network monitoring using SNMP.

    Previously, most of us had been using editors that made various uses of ASCII
    terminals - Ann Arbor Ambassadors mostly that could give you 43 lines on the
    screen and pretend to be full-screen by using cursor addressing.

    So everyone assumed we'd continue doing much the same, and the debate turned
    onto which editor everyone would be trained to use under unix. Would it be vi,
    emacs, jove, something else. I got bored waiting for this debate to conclude,
    then found the Ultrix box had dxnotepad. So I spent 5 minutes learning how to
    use a mouse-based editor, and got on with writing large amounts of C. Six >> months later I found that the debate about which editor to use had made no >> progress, so I carried on using dxnotepad, which although not a patch on
    something like BBedit, was still better than any ASCII-terminal-based junk, >> all of which is obsolete. Why are they obsolete? Because they are bad tools.
    They require you to remember stuff just to use them. Even vi has a manual that
    is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys >> smoking?

    I don't remember ever reading vi's manual.
    I just asked the bloke next to me. I think someone printed up a card
    with the basic cursors on it

    Yes, DEC made some. I still have mine - vi Beginner's Reference. Order No: AV-MF 10A-TE if anyone needs to order one.

    Someone else showed me basic regex search and replace and that's as far
    as I needed to go to write probably a million pages of code

    Well that's the point really.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 10:30:36 2021
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 08:56:40 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I've never understood the big advantage of this sort of IDE over doing
    each of those things (edit, compile, run/test) in separate terminal
    windows. I have a syntax highlighting editor that runs in a terminal.

    The best unix IDE is urxvt with tmux.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Feb 17 11:00:53 2021
    On 16/02/2021 20:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 16 Feb 2021 19:15:42 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    I got bored waiting for this debate to conclude,
    then found the Ultrix box had dxnotepad. So I spent 5 minutes learning
    how to use a mouse-based editor, and got on with writing large amounts of
    C.

    That's fine and dandy when you have the option of running a GUI app
    on the box with the code that needs editing - this tends to be problematic when the box in question is on another continent (or even just in another building), at which point being good with a terminal based editor is
    helpful.

    :-)

    Even my little headless pi downstairs in the dining room hasn't got any
    GUI...

    But it has got NFS, so I can edit its files on this GUI machine. Most of
    them anyway.

    I remember the thrill I got sitting in a machine room in the Channel
    islands, mounting an SMB share on my windows laptop and editing a report
    over a 2MBps link to HQ in east Anglia...

    Editing files on my remote servers using a GUI and NFS* is faster than
    it used to be over coaxial ethernet in the same room.

    *I have a fixed IP address. the firewalls at each end know what to do.
    If someone in the middle really wants my source code that bad, they can
    have it. If I want access globally I use sshfs



    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Feb 17 11:05:40 2021
    On 17/02/2021 10:20, druck wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking
    *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    That's because it's an enormously powerful text manipulation program,

    because it hasn't got a gui, it needs to be. Remember Vi was first
    written for teletypes. You know. Go to line 32 and replace 'grsx' with
    'grrr'

    you used it with a heavily marked up printout of your source code and
    the errors coming out of the compilers.

    At te days end you submitted your code and et operators would print it
    out and try and compile it again

    My first simple FORTRAN program took 12 weeks to write and debug


    and not just a text box with a cursor like Notepad.

    Nothing wrong with notepad

    ---druck


    --
    New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
    the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
    someone else's pocket.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 11:11:04 2021
    On 17/02/2021 08:56, Chris Green wrote:
    Again the*huge* advantage of running everything in terminal windows
    running a (bash) shell is that one is using the same working
    environment for everything,

    that is spurious. I remeber writing in Wordstar, on a PC, uploading to a
    PDP 11, using a terminal emulator on the PC to compile and VI to edit te makefile before downloading the code into an in circuit emulators
    pretending to be a 6809 microprocessor ...driving an oscilloscope

    Never mind different windows I was working on 4 totally different
    machines...

    I find the same with et Pi.

    Except final compilations has to be on it because I cant be bothered to
    cross compile and get that lot set up

    --
    New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
    the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
    someone else's pocket.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to TimS on Wed Feb 17 10:20:38 2021
    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long.
    A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    That's because it's an enormously powerful text manipulation program,
    and not just a text box with a cursor like Notepad.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Feb 17 10:39:28 2021
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long.
    A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    That's because it's an enormously powerful text manipulation program,
    and not just a text box with a cursor like Notepad.

    ... *and* it's very well documented.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 10:52:40 2021
    On 17 Feb 2021 at 10:39:37 GMT, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

    On 16.2.21 21.15, TimS wrote:

    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*?
    What are these guys smoking?

    So what?

    Emacs manual (emacs 7x9.pdf) is 651 pages.

    Even worse.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 11:12:56 2021
    On 17 Feb 2021 at 10:54:18 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 22:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Plus, it didn't have or need the
    'reveal codes' mode that everybody needed use to disentangle a WordPerfect >> document sooner or later.

    A huge loss, since it was impossible to disentangle Word documents *at
    all* without simply deleting and staring over...

    You can often reduce their size though, by copying everything in the Word doc except the final paragraph marker, then pasting that into a new empty doc.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 11:40:12 2021
    Dana Wed, 17 Feb 2021 10:48:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o:
    On 16/02/2021 12:16, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:09:02 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> napis'o:
    There's plenty of books written in LaTeX it's not a bad option,
    better than troff in many ways - but both were designed for the job of
    producing books and they're pretty good at it. These day's I'd be more
    inclined to use docbook and forget all about the layout until print time. >>
    That is exactly my point. Final layout is just the final step after
    structuring your tekst. And LaTeX does that really nice.
    Just few corrections and that's it.

    yup. Latex is ok for tech stuff. But you can use page layout stuff like scribus ...I am writing a book in Libre office, because it has just

    True. But every book that needs your attention on every page... is
    not a book I would like to read. :)
    LaTeX forces me to structure the whole thing. To lay it out and see
    the content. If I need figures or tables, I reference these and let
    LaTeX decide where to put them to make the text flow.
    I rarely have to intervene. And the text flows.
    Well... Knuth did it right with TeX. And huge amounts of packages did
    the rest.

    And it does what you tell it to do. No "AI" in it.
    I hate "AI" in text processors. :)

    enough features to do the job I want to do and its free, and I never
    used Latex enough to be handy with it, and Scribus is overkill


    True. I prefere LibreOffice over M$. LibreOffice was done with
    nonEnglish users in mind. And it works great!

    I use Scribus for adverts and brochures and the like where page

    In case of posters and things like that I use Inkscape.

    presentation is important. Geany for code. Lire office for not too
    technical docs and books and pluma for unstructured plain text.
    For editing config files on non GUI clients vi or joe.

    *shrug* i ain't got religion, just a selection of imperfect tools

    Yeah. That's it. Every tools has a purpose. You can write .svg
    in vim, but it's easier to do that visually in Inkscape. :)
    But I do write .html in vim. :)
    It's again all about the document structure.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 12:00:24 2021
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 10:20, druck wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking
    *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    That's because it's an enormously powerful text manipulation program,

    because it hasn't got a gui, it needs to be. Remember Vi was first
    written for teletypes. You know. Go to line 32 and replace 'grsx' with
    'grrr'

    vi mostly certainly *wasn't* "written for teletypes", it's name gives
    the lie to this - vi[sual editor]. The editor for teletypes was ed, and
    if you called vi as ex you got an extended version of ed.


    There are GUI versions of vi, the most widely used is probably gvim but
    the one I use (if I want a GUI) is xvile.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Nikolaj Lazic on Wed Feb 17 11:48:08 2021
    On 17/02/2021 11:40, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    I use Scribus for adverts and brochures and the like where page
    In case of posters and things like that I use Inkscape.

    Does inkscape do multipage PDFs? Every time I've used it it hasnt worked
    for me and I never bothered to delve into it enough. I have Corel Draw
    on an XP virtual machine if I need a drawing program

    Scribus does a better job of formatting


    presentation is important. Geany for code. Lire office for not too
    technical docs and books and pluma for unstructured plain text.
    For editing config files on non GUI clients vi or joe.

    *shrug* i ain't got religion, just a selection of imperfect tools
    Yeah. That's it. Every tools has a purpose. You can write .svg
    in vim, but it's easier to do that visually in Inkscape.:)
    But I do write .html in vim.:)
    It's again all about the document structure.

    I write it in Geany.

    Got used to the highlighting

    And function collapse..and..and..just got used to it is all.

    My code is mainly PHP/HTML/CSS/Javascript or C and that combo sits well
    on Geany.

    Since I don't really do it professionally the learning curve to move to
    an unfamiliar editor, is significant.




    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 11:54:57 2021
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Editing files on my remote servers using a GUI and NFS* is faster than
    it used to be over coaxial ethernet in the same room.

    *I have a fixed IP address. the firewalls at each end know what to do.
    If someone in the middle really wants my source code that bad, they can
    have it. If I want access globally I use sshfs

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every
    system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting
    up nfs.

    While I could use a GUI at the client end I nearly always end up using
    my standard text mode/command line tools.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 12:03:26 2021
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 08:56, Chris Green wrote:
    Again the*huge* advantage of running everything in terminal windows running a (bash) shell is that one is using the same working
    environment for everything,

    that is spurious. I remeber writing in Wordstar, on a PC, uploading to a
    PDP 11, using a terminal emulator on the PC to compile and VI to edit te makefile before downloading the code into an in circuit emulators
    pretending to be a 6809 microprocessor ...driving an oscilloscope

    Never mind different windows I was working on 4 totally different
    machines...

    Yes, each a remote connection via a terminal window, at least this
    would be the modern idiom for this.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Feb 17 12:01:33 2021
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 08:56:40 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I've never understood the big advantage of this sort of IDE over doing
    each of those things (edit, compile, run/test) in separate terminal windows. I have a syntax highlighting editor that runs in a terminal.

    The best unix IDE is urxvt with tmux.

    Exactly! :-)

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 12:39:46 2021
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every
    system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting
    up nfs.

    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to the server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS over VPN
    or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the command line
    and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in the data centre
    where everything else is.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 12:21:34 2021
    Dana Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:48:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o:
    On 17/02/2021 11:40, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    I use Scribus for adverts and brochures and the like where page
    In case of posters and things like that I use Inkscape.

    Does inkscape do multipage PDFs? Every time I've used it it hasnt worked

    I don't think so. Posters are single page documents. Only if you
    cut them in pieces and glue back after printing. :)

    for me and I never bothered to delve into it enough. I have Corel Draw
    on an XP virtual machine if I need a drawing program

    Well... yeah... when you get used to some tool... it sticks.
    Until you force yourself to switch. :)


    Scribus does a better job of formatting


    presentation is important. Geany for code. Lire office for not too
    technical docs and books and pluma for unstructured plain text.
    For editing config files on non GUI clients vi or joe.

    *shrug* i ain't got religion, just a selection of imperfect tools
    Yeah. That's it. Every tools has a purpose. You can write .svg
    in vim, but it's easier to do that visually in Inkscape.:)
    But I do write .html in vim.:)
    It's again all about the document structure.

    I write it in Geany.

    Got used to the highlighting

    And function collapse..and..and..just got used to it is all.

    My code is mainly PHP/HTML/CSS/Javascript or C and that combo sits well
    on Geany.

    Since I don't really do it professionally the learning curve to move to
    an unfamiliar editor, is significant.

    True.
    It's great to have a choice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Feb 17 13:20:00 2021
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting
    up nfs.

    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to the server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS over VPN
    or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the command line
    and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in the data centre where everything else is.

    Yes, most of the time I simply ssh to the remote system and use the
    (bash) command line. On most of the remote systems I have the same
    editor (vile) and bash configuration.

    However there's a few places (in particular my hosting provider) where
    I have ssh access but don't have the option of getting my favourite
    editor installed (and there other useful utilities missing as well) so
    for those I sometime mount them locally using sshfs.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From druck@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 13:36:08 2021
    On 17/02/2021 10:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 22:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Plus, it didn't have or need the
    'reveal codes' mode that everybody needed use to disentangle a
    WordPerfect
    document sooner or later.

    A huge loss, since it was impossible to disentangle Word documents *at
    all* without simply deleting and staring over...

    Export to rtf, and cry!

    ---druck

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 15:12:28 2021
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 10:54:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 22:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Plus, it didn't have or need the 'reveal codes' mode that everybody
    needed use to disentangle a WordPerfect document sooner or later.

    A huge loss, since it was impossible to disentangle Word documents *at
    all* without simply deleting and staring over...

    I don't remember ever having that problem with Word for DOS - its the
    only M$ product that I've liked without reservations. Can't say the same
    about Word for Windows.



    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Theo on Wed Feb 17 16:44:27 2021
    On 2021-02-17, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
    I've never understood the big advantage of this sort of IDE over doing
    each of those things (edit, compile, run/test) in separate terminal
    windows. I have a syntax highlighting editor that runs in a terminal.

    Again the *huge* advantage of running everything in terminal windows
    running a (bash) shell is that one is using the same working
    environment for everything, whether your compiling and testing code,
    doing some housekeeping, checking E-Mails or whatever.

    Somebody asked what I'm looking for. That's a good question. Currently I
    do what you say - edit most things in a terminal window, because that environment is universal whether I'm editing locally or remotely (I probably do >70% of my editing remotely, including most mail and Usenet).

    So I suppose what I'm after is something that makes a compelling reason for editing locally, where I will put up with the hassles of bringing the files to me because it gives me something extra.

    I'm not terribly bothered by being able to compile stuff from an editor - on a terminal the shell is always the 'quit' keystroke away, and I can flip
    back to the editor with up-arrow and Enter. So that's a non-problem as far as I'm concerned. It is nice to be able to compile when looking at the
    code, but two terminal windows give me that.

    One good reason for a GUI editor is mouse-based selection. I much prefer
    the keyboard, but sometimes you're moving big chunks of text around (say refactoring code or a document) and it's easier to point and drag than lots of cursor manipulation (start-marker, end-marker, cut, move, paste, etc) Almost very GUI editor does that (with the exception of gvim, which is a bit weird) so it's not really a discriminating factor.

    One thing I do appreciate though is being able to operate everything
    smoothly from the keyboard when I don't need the mouse. One wordprocessor required me to use the menu shortcuts (something like Alt-E-F-S for strikeout) and that was awkward. Yes there was a button on the toolbar, but switching keyboard-mouse-keyboard is time consuming.

    Syntax highlighting is also a given, but with a wide set of rules. I opened a device tree .dts file in geany yesterday and was surprised it didn't highlight. It did highlight C code.

    Another desirable feature would be code navigation - click on a function
    call to go to its definition, bring up the API documentation in some kind of popup, grep-style search where you get a list of results and can click on a result to go to that file.

    Similarly code folding - being able to collapse functions (or sections in your Latex or whatever) so it's easier to skip over those you aren't working on. Saves scrollbar time.

    Another useful feature is debugger integration - not just running gdb alongside, but being able to set breakpoints with clicks on source lines, when you get to the breakpoints being able to see the tree of variables in a window that you can navigate by mouse, rather than typing out search
    patterns at a gdb prompt.

    Basically this sounds something a bit more IDE like but not tied to a particular language/toolchain - often IDEs are strongly tied to particular environments (Java, embedded, etc) and it feels awkward if you're using them for something else, so you end up flitting between multiple IDEs. I suppose I'm looking for an editor with IDE features rather than an IDE with editor features.

    Answers on a postcard...

    When you can fit your question on a postcard then maybe you can demand
    and answer on one :-) How many lines was that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Tauno Voipio on Wed Feb 17 16:51:01 2021
    On 2021-02-17, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
    On 16.2.21 21.15, TimS wrote:

    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*?
    What are these guys smoking?

    So what?

    Emacs manual (emacs 7x9.pdf) is 651 pages.


    And that doesn't cover all the extra stuff you end up loading! I'm still learning emacs and I've been continuously using it since 1986 (I think -
    covid lockdown memory fog!) under Primos.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 16:54:27 2021
    On 2021-02-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/02/2021 10:20, druck wrote:

    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:

    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking
    *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    That's because it's an enormously powerful text manipulation program,

    because it hasn't got a gui, it needs to be. Remember Vi was first
    written for teletypes. You know. Go to line 32 and replace 'grsx' with
    'grrr'

    you used it with a heavily marked up printout of your source code and
    the errors coming out of the compilers.

    At te days end you submitted your code and et operators would print it
    out and try and compile it again

    My first simple FORTRAN program took 12 weeks to write and debug

    A lot of people forget (or never knew) what things were like back then.

    and not just a text box with a cursor like Notepad.

    Nothing wrong with notepad

    Unless you're doing a big search/replace. Make sure you have
    something else to do in the meantime...

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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  • From aen@spamtrap.com@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 17:23:22 2021
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 08:56:40 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
    I've never understood the big advantage of this sort of IDE over doing
    each of those things (edit, compile, run/test) in separate terminal
    windows. I have a syntax highlighting editor that runs in a terminal.

    With VNC and Virtual Machines you can do some surprising things
    nowadays. For instance I can open a VNC-Connection to my rpi3b with
    an arm64 Debian on my Windows 10 PC, open Geany there, and select the
    text of an assembly language source file and copy it. Then I open
    Virtualbox with a x86-64 Debian in Windows 10, open Geany there too,
    and paste the source in.

    Since I use as and ld on both machines, and macros for system calls
    (which make the right conversion for each cpu in the background), I
    can convert the source from arm64 to x86-64 very fast, and don't even
    have to change the command-line options and libraries to use for the
    tools to assemble and link them.
    --
    aen

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  • From druck@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 20:38:04 2021
    On 17/02/2021 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 10:20, druck wrote:
    and not just a text box with a cursor like Notepad.

    Nothing wrong with notepad

    There certainly is, try Notepad++ instead.

    BTW: it has about a 100 page manual.

    ---druck

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 20:53:14 2021
    On 17/02/2021 12:00, Chris Green wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 10:20, druck wrote:
    On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
    Even vi has a manual that is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking >>>> *editor*? What are these guys smoking?

    That's because it's an enormously powerful text manipulation program,

    because it hasn't got a gui, it needs to be. Remember Vi was first
    written for teletypes. You know. Go to line 32 and replace 'grsx' with
    'grrr'

    vi mostly certainly *wasn't* "written for teletypes", it's name gives
    the lie to this - vi[sual editor]. The editor for teletypes was ed, and
    if you called vi as ex you got an extended version of ed.

    vi was a superstructure pasted on ed as far as I can recall

    It was never designed as a CRT based editor. It is 100% line oriented

    I'll bet my sweet bippy is was a line editor adated for use on a 24x80
    terminal



    There are GUI versions of vi, the most widely used is probably gvim but
    the one I use (if I want a GUI) is xvile.

    Whatever wrecks your boat. Why on earth use vi in GUI?

    Its already crap in a terminal compared with Joe.

    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 20:54:15 2021
    On 17/02/2021 11:54, Chris Green wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Editing files on my remote servers using a GUI and NFS* is faster than
    it used to be over coaxial ethernet in the same room.

    *I have a fixed IP address. the firewalls at each end know what to do.
    If someone in the middle really wants my source code that bad, they can
    have it. If I want access globally I use sshfs

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every
    system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting
    up nfs.

    Well possibly. Nfs does at least allow you to specify what you export. I
    agree it takes all of 3 minutes to set it up.



    While I could use a GUI at the client end I nearly always end up using
    my standard text mode/command line tools.



    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Feb 17 20:58:39 2021
    On 17/02/2021 12:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every
    system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting
    up nfs.

    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to the server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS over VPN
    or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the command line
    and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in the data centre where everything else is.

    Well that again depends on your network speed. I now have a minimum
    speed of 10Mbps up and that's as good as the coaxial ethernet NFS was
    designed for

    But the huge advantage for ME is that NFS mounted remote filesystems
    appear just like local ones. Its all nicely integrated

    Sure I use ssh for some stuff. But its nice to click on a directory and
    open a remote server data area

    I dabbled with sshfs but for some reason I abandoned it in favour of NFS

    I cant remember why....


    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 21:00:26 2021
    On 17/02/2021 12:03, Chris Green wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 08:56, Chris Green wrote:
    Again the*huge* advantage of running everything in terminal windows
    running a (bash) shell is that one is using the same working
    environment for everything,

    that is spurious. I remeber writing in Wordstar, on a PC, uploading to a
    PDP 11, using a terminal emulator on the PC to compile and VI to edit te
    makefile before downloading the code into an in circuit emulators
    pretending to be a 6809 microprocessor ...driving an oscilloscope

    Never mind different windows I was working on 4 totally different
    machines...

    Yes, each a remote connection via a terminal window, at least this
    would be the modern idiom for this.

    Not then

    we got as far as two apps on a dos PC. but the ice had its own screen
    and so did the scope IIRC



    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Nikolaj Lazic on Wed Feb 17 21:02:37 2021
    On 17/02/2021 12:21, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    Dana Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:48:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> napis'o:
    On 17/02/2021 11:40, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
    I use Scribus for adverts and brochures and the like where page
    In case of posters and things like that I use Inkscape.

    Does inkscape do multipage PDFs? Every time I've used it it hasnt worked

    I don't think so. Posters are single page documents. Only if you
    cut them in pieces and glue back after printing. :)

    for me and I never bothered to delve into it enough. I have Corel Draw
    on an XP virtual machine if I need a drawing program

    Well... yeah... when you get used to some tool... it sticks.
    Until you force yourself to switch. :)

    I've tried to do stuff in inkscape but it simply doesn't seem to do what
    corel does.

    Corel is a blend of CAD and art stuff. Ive never found anything else
    like it.



    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 21:13:39 2021
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:58:39 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/02/2021 12:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to
    the server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS
    over VPN or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the command line and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in
    the data centre where everything else is.

    Well that again depends on your network speed. I now have a minimum
    speed of 10Mbps up and that's as good as the coaxial ethernet NFS was designed for

    Latency is more of a factor than speed, I have 1Gbps down, 100Mbps
    up, but if the other end is on another continent then the latency tends to
    make things painful.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Wed Feb 17 21:24:12 2021
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
    However there's a few places (in particular my hosting provider) where
    I have ssh access but don't have the option of getting my favourite
    editor installed (and there other useful utilities missing as well) so
    for those I sometime mount them locally using sshfs.

    The thing I don't like about sshfs is that if the connection drops (for example, laptop sleep or changing wifi network) you're left with a mount
    that hangs - it doesn't unmount, and it doesn't try to reconnect, it's just
    a zombie. It can hang programs that try and access files in there.

    According to a stackexchange answer the thing to do is
    sshfs -o reconnect,ServerAliveInterval=15,ServerAliveCountMax=3

    which doesn't exactly trip off the tongue. I'll try it.

    The unmount command is
    fusermount -u
    which is also non-obvious.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 21:18:53 2021
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:14 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    vi was a superstructure pasted on ed as far as I can recall

    Correct - it stands for Visual Interface.

    It was never designed as a CRT based editor. It is 100% line oriented

    Vi was most certainly designed as a CRT based interface to an
    editor, one of the very first such. Some of the screen handling code in the original vi wound up as part of curses.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Feb 17 21:30:40 2021
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 12:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every
    system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting
    up nfs.

    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to the server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS over VPN or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the command line and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in the data centre where everything else is.

    Well that again depends on your network speed. I now have a minimum
    speed of 10Mbps up and that's as good as the coaxial ethernet NFS was designed for

    But the huge advantage for ME is that NFS mounted remote filesystems
    appear just like local ones. Its all nicely integrated

    So do sshfs mounted ones.

    Sure I use ssh for some stuff. But its nice to click on a directory and
    open a remote server data area

    I dabbled with sshfs but for some reason I abandoned it in favour of NFS

    I cant remember why....

    No, I can't see why. If you have ssh configured to connect to a
    server then mounting its files using sshfs 'just works' with no
    further configuration at either end.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Scott Alfter@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Wed Feb 17 21:43:15 2021
    In article <s0g8lj$q52$2@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think
    anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly no >TCP/IP - must have been over serial.

    Almost certainly a serial (RS-232) connection, whether over dial-up or hardwired. I'd dial in to a terminal server with my Apple II and telnet
    from there into whatever box I wanted to use. Emacs was the preferred
    editor at the time, though I've since forgotten how to use it and mostly use Joe nowadays. I could've used AppleWorks or the built-in editor in ProTERM
    to edit files that would then be uploaded, but it wouldn't have been any
    faster than editing online (in the case of AppleWorks, it would've been
    slower as you'd have to hang up, quit ProTERM, start AppleWorks, do your editing, exit, restart ProTERM, reconnect, and upload your file).

    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Dennis Lee Bieber@3:770/3 to All on Wed Feb 17 23:36:11 2021
    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:18:41 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> declaimed the following:


    Latex is cool, If you have a better editor I'm all ears.

    Have you seen LyX https://www.lyx.org/


    --
    Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Feb 18 04:52:33 2021
    On 17/02/2021 21:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:14 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    vi was a superstructure pasted on ed as far as I can recall

    Correct - it stands for Visual Interface.

    It was never designed as a CRT based editor. It is 100% line oriented

    Vi was most certainly designed as a CRT based interface to an
    editor, one of the very first such. Some of the screen handling code in the original vi wound up as part of curses.

    Er no...it wasnt


    " The vi editor was developed starting around 1976 by Bill Joy, who was
    then a graduate student at the University of California at Berkeley. Joy
    later went on to help found Sun Microsystems and became its Chief Scientist.

    "ed" was the original Unix text editor. *Like other early text editors,
    it was line oriented and used from dumb printing terminals*. Joy first developed "ex" as an improved line editor that supported a superset of
    ed commands. He then developed vi as a "visual interface" to ex. That
    is, it allows text to be viewed on a full screen rather than only one
    line at a time. vi takes its name from this fact.

    vi remains very popular today in spite of the development and widespread availability of GUI (graphical user interface) mode text editors which
    are far more intuitive and much easier for beginners to use than
    text-mode text editors such as vi. GUI-mode text editors include gedit
    and Emacs, both of which have become very common on Linux and other
    Unixes today. "

    http://www.linfo.org/vi/history.html --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Perhaps you didnt take my meaning. Vi was never designed *from the
    ground up* as a CRT oriented WYSIWYG editor. It was a bolted on *Visual Interface* enhancement to ed/ex and as such retains all the line
    oriented controls and is almost useless in terms of being able to edit
    AND move around the document, and it has ed's powerful tools BECAUSE of
    that.

    I dont know what if anything was the first decent CRT based text editor
    for Unix, because I never found one. Maybe EMACS. I never bothered to
    learn that because my time on Unix systems was as a hired contract coder
    - I never had my 'own' environment - and you had to work with whatever
    was available and that meant overwhelmingly vi as the highest common
    factor..

    Since I had already worked with Wordstar on CP/M and DOS, vi was, by comparison, utter shit.

    But I learnt what I needed to to get the job done

    --
    Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
    twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
    on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
    projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

    Richard Lindzen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Feb 18 04:28:19 2021
    On 17/02/2021 21:13, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:58:39 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/02/2021 12:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to
    the server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS
    over VPN or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the
    command line and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in
    the data centre where everything else is.

    Well that again depends on your network speed. I now have a minimum
    speed of 10Mbps up and that's as good as the coaxial ethernet NFS was
    designed for

    Latency is more of a factor than speed, I have 1Gbps down, 100Mbps
    up, but if the other end is on another continent then the latency tends to make things painful.

    Mmm. Latency is usually more an issue of link speed than of actual time
    delay.

    I get 11-20ms for a 64byte PING to pretty much any decent core server
    in the USA from here in the UK - 11ms - that's my uplink delay

    Its hard to tell what more remote countries are like because everyone
    tends to shove their hosting service in the USA.

    NFS suffers under latency a bit, but protocols like sshfs should not -
    they use large packet sizes


    --
    "First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors."
    - George Orwell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Thu Feb 18 04:36:39 2021
    On 17/02/2021 21:30, Chris Green wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/02/2021 12:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:54:57 +0000
    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

    I use sshfs all the time, since I have ssh set up to connect to every
    system I'm interested in it's actually easier to use sshfs than setting >>>> up nfs.

    Apart from anything else sshfs doesn't require admin access to the >>> server. IME though the latency in a remote FS mount either by NFS over VPN >>> or sshfs over anything can be painful compared to using the command line >>> and tmux over an ssh connection to a box or VM that's in the data centre >>> where everything else is.

    Well that again depends on your network speed. I now have a minimum
    speed of 10Mbps up and that's as good as the coaxial ethernet NFS was
    designed for

    But the huge advantage for ME is that NFS mounted remote filesystems
    appear just like local ones. Its all nicely integrated

    So do sshfs mounted ones.

    Sure I use ssh for some stuff. But its nice to click on a directory and
    open a remote server data area

    I dabbled with sshfs but for some reason I abandoned it in favour of NFS

    I cant remember why....

    No, I can't see why. If you have ssh configured to connect to a
    server then mounting its files using sshfs 'just works' with no
    further configuration at either end.

    I think I couldn't get full root permissions in the same way I could
    with NFS - had to mount as myself to take advantage of the passwordless access...

    No big deal, but it works the way it is now



    --
    It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Feb 18 06:08:50 2021
    On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 04:52:33 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/02/2021 21:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:14 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    vi was a superstructure pasted on ed as far as I can recall

    Correct - it stands for Visual Interface.

    It was never designed as a CRT based editor. It is 100% line oriented

    Vi was most certainly designed as a CRT based interface to an
    editor, one of the very first such. Some of the screen handling code in
    the original vi wound up as part of curses.

    Er no...it wasnt

    Your quote confirms my statement - extracting the relevant piece.

    He then developed vi as a "visual interface" to ex. That
    is, it allows text to be viewed on a full screen rather than only one
    line at a time. vi takes its name from this fact.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Feb 18 11:41:25 2021
    On 18/02/2021 06:08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 04:52:33 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/02/2021 21:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:14 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    vi was a superstructure pasted on ed as far as I can recall

    Correct - it stands for Visual Interface.

    It was never designed as a CRT based editor. It is 100% line oriented

    Vi was most certainly designed as a CRT based interface to an
    editor, one of the very first such. Some of the screen handling code in
    the original vi wound up as part of curses.

    Er no...it wasnt

    Your quote confirms my statement - extracting the relevant piece.

    Nope. If confirms that Vi is basically a line oriented editor that was
    able to display more lines than Ed could. 25 instead of 1....


    He then developed vi as a "visual interface" to ex. That
    is, it allows text to be viewed on a full screen rather than only one
    line at a time. vi takes its name from this fact.



    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Phigan@1:105/82 to Theo on Fri Feb 19 12:27:32 2021
    Re: Re: Adding VS Code to Pi
    By: Theo to Phigan on Mon Feb 15 2021 09:56 pm

    I've used it before. What's notable about it? I didn't really explore, but it looked to me fairly basic - like a slightly fancier version of gedit.

    That's all that's notable about it :). It's basic/simple/small. I dunno, some people like that.
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: fluxcap.synchro.net:5023 - Portland, OR (1:105/82)