Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!
When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11
with 32 KB Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost
about £10K whereas my annual salary as a graduate beginner
was about £1350 PA, way back in 1972 and I thought that I
was the bees' knees back then!
Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!
When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11
with 32 KB Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost
about £10K whereas my annual salary as a graduate beginner
was about £1350 PA, way back in 1972 and I thought that I
was the bees' knees back then!
On 28/10/2021 10:05, gareth evans wrote:
Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!
When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11
with 32 KB Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost
about £10K whereas my annual salary as a graduate beginner
was about £1350 PA, way back in 1972 and I thought that I
was the bees' knees back then!
Oops, forgot the ...
https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-2?mc_cid=d871881b1e&mc_eid=22518990c8
On 28/10/2021 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
problem:-)
Yes, more memory would be nice, but I have an app which is a little slow on the
Pi Zero, and where the multiple cores would likely speed it up noticeably. I'm
looking forward to testing it.
well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a problem:-)
On 28/10/2021 10:05, gareth evans wrote:
Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!I sometimes imagine what would have happened if someone had tossed a
When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11
with 32 KB Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost
about £10K whereas my annual salary as a graduate beginner
was about £1350 PA, way back in 1972 and I thought that I
was the bees' knees back then!
fully linux loaded laptop with C compiler at Alan Turing and the boys in
the last war.
well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a problem :-)
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower
in the same Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web interface as the user interface.
On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower
in the same Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
interface as the user interface.
I use mine to get my GNU/Linux command line fix. I use Mutt, SLRN, Newsbeuter, Lynx (for web and Gopher), Weechat, and access BBSes.
It also runs; web server, onion server, SFTP, and NZB downloader.
My RPi3 just bust so I got the RPi4 now.
TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
TN> problem :-)
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web interface
as the user interface.
"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:slgch5$7id$2@dont-email.me...
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
they did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
interface as the user interface.
I have two Pis.
Pi 3B+ runs Cumulus weather station software, receiving temperature, rainfall, humidity and wind readings from a weather station, logging
them and updating a website of them. It also runs a Node app which
monitors and graphs the power consumption over time for a couple of
freezers in the garage (Beko, so rated to well below freezing, before
anyone comments!) using smart plugs: this is a crude way of checking
that the freezers are working properly and have not a) stopped working altogether, or b) started working continuously because of lack of
coolant; ideally I'd use a remote-monitored thermometer inside the
freezer, but I can't find any of those for sale.
Pi 4 runs TVHeadend PVR software to record TV programmes via DVB-S and
DVB-T tuners. I save the recordings to a spinning (ie not solid-state)
HDD which I SAMBA-share and then edit out commercials/continuity using VideoReDo on Windows before saving the recordings to shared folder
structure on Windows which can be viewed on the TV via Plex. I also have another folder on the Pi shared as general-purpose NAS for files that I
want to be accessible 24/7 without needing to turn on a Windows PC.
Both Pis run Raspberry PiOS (aka Raspbian). I am cautious about updating software the Pi 4 after I found that an update (probably to the kernel) caused a lot of glitches on recordings from the DVB-S tuner, so I
regressed to an older kernel and have stopped updating this Pi. I take
images of both Pis' SD cards every few months so I've got a rollback
point. I've also made copious notes about installation and configuration
in case I decide to reinstall from scratch - as I had to do with the 3B
after it refused to boot after a tidy restart one day: I never did get
to the bottom of what had gone wrong, and it was quicker to reinstall
than to spend any more time investigating.
One cautionary tale. The Pi4 originally used a USB HDD plugged into a
powered USB hub to power the HDD so the Pi didn't have to supply power.
This had worked fine on the Pi 3B, but the Pi 4 refused to boot whilst
the hub was powered; it hung indefinitely until I turned off the hub or unplugged the hub's USB from the Pi, at which point booting proceeded as normal. Some people suggested that certain hubs try to feed power back
up the USB cable to the Pi, but I disproved that by making up a special
lead on which I had cut the +5V line - this did not fix the problem. So
I now use a SATA drive in a powered caddy, which works fine.
One cautionary tale. The Pi4 originally used a USB HDD plugged into a
powered USB hub to power the HDD so the Pi didn't have to supply
power. This had worked fine on the Pi 3B, but the Pi 4 refused to
boot whilst the hub was powered; it hung indefinitely until I turned
off the hub or unplugged the hub's USB from the Pi, at which point
booting proceeded as normal. Some people suggested that certain hubs
try to feed power back up the USB cable to the Pi, but I disproved
that by making up a special lead on which I had cut the +5V line -
this did not fix the problem. So I now use a SATA drive in a powered
caddy, which works fine.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
1) I have a Pi 4 running OpenMediaVault acting as primary file backup
server for the home PCs, laptops etc.
2) I have another Pi 4 running SimH and pretending (perfectly) to be a VAX running VMS 5.5-2 for a software archaeology project and archiving historic source code for posterity.
3) I have a Pi Zero W with a one-wire temperature sensor, monitoring a temperamental freezer and sending me an email if it gets too hot or cold.
4) I have a Pi Zero W with voice hat, running Google Assistant, as a Hey Google smart speaker in the living room to ask about the weather etc.
5) I have a Pi 3B with a Pisound hat running Patchbox for music experiments with a midi concertina (not many of them about).
Plus a few earlier machines that have been passed on to a local kid who’s interested in electronics.
Regards,
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
they did with Pis.
On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for aWell I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
TN> problem :-)
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web >interface as the user interface.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
On 29/10/2021 10:09, Geeknix wrote:
On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:Oh, so its a user interfaced device with screen and keyboard?
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower
in the same Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
interface as the user interface.
I use mine to get my GNU/Linux command line fix. I use Mutt, SLRN,
Newsbeuter, Lynx (for web and Gopher), Weechat, and access BBSes.
It also runs; web server, onion server, SFTP, and NZB downloader.
My RPi3 just bust so I got the RPi4 now.
I thought that a zero wouldn't really run a gui, but never thought of
running a console non - x session
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solutionWell I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
looking for a
TN> problem :-)
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in
the same
Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web interface as the user interface.
Oh, so its a user interfaced device with screen and keyboard?
I thought that a zero wouldn't really run a gui
On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for aWell I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
TN> problem :-)
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
In message <slgch5$7id$2@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.
I have an old Pi running my central heating and hot water system. Home
brew software, running on RISC OS. Includes web interface and voice
control. Occasionally used for controlling Sonoff devices too, again including voice control.
I have a Pi 3B+ running OpenMediaVault, with two drives, acting as a
NAS, mainly for backups and storing photos and videos.
There's an older Pi (I forget which model) running OpenVPN to secure
web access to the heating system when away from home.
Other than the main desktop, they run headless.
I've got a couple more that I occasionally run up when I want to try something else.
David
Wildlife camera (Motion)
Or at least not with the software I
could find some time ago, everything seems to be "forked from a
fork of a fork" sort of stuff and there's little clear
documentation of the changes
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
It also runs a Node app which monitors and graphs the power consumptionThat sounds massively interesting.
over time for a couple of freezers in the garage (Beko, so rated to well
below freezing, before anyone comments!) using smart plugs: this is a
crude way of checking that the freezers are working properly and have not
a) stopped working altogether, or b) started working continuously because
of lack of coolant; ideally I'd use a remote-monitored thermometer inside
the freezer, but I can't find any of those for sale.
Smart plugs?
I SSH to the Pi from any machine. As I only use it for command line
stuff with no X-Forwarding.
On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:11:40 +0100
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
One cautionary tale. The Pi4 originally used a USB HDD plugged into a
powered USB hub to power the HDD so the Pi didn't have to supply
power. This had worked fine on the Pi 3B, but the Pi 4 refused to
boot whilst the hub was powered; it hung indefinitely until I turned
off the hub or unplugged the hub's USB from the Pi, at which point
booting proceeded as normal. Some people suggested that certain hubs
try to feed power back up the USB cable to the Pi, but I disproved
that by making up a special lead on which I had cut the +5V line -
this did not fix the problem. So I now use a SATA drive in a powered
caddy, which works fine.
I have an old-ish (about to retire) Gigabyte MB, whose BIOS swears that booting from USB is disabled, but if I ever leave a USB stick in it by accident, the next boot hangs while it tries to find a non-existent bootloader on the thing.
There is a hub permanently connected, which doesn't seem to worry it,
but it will hang on any other USB device, there's apparently no
timeout. Possibly there's an updated BIOS that fixes this, but in
general I don't touch the BIOS unless it has a serious problem.
On 29/10/2021 22:47, John Aldridge wrote:
Wildlife camera (Motion)
Id be interested in hearing more about that.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
23 to date. Here goes...
On 29-10-2021 10:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Zero W with hifiberry DAC feeding a 200W hifi fed from house server
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
they did with Pis.
400: workbench computer, also testing distros with different sd cards.
4: headless wired server booting from ssd, home webserver, development
files backup, ssh entrypoint from outside, using free mathematica via
vnc (so, still on 32-bit RPiOS), automated download script for 15-minute temperature graphs of the country (NL) which it makes into a movie every night, testing programs/scripts on a "slow" computer, general linux
testbed.
ZeroW: with Iqaudio board hooked up to the stereo for music streams via
mpd and my own web interface.
2x ZeroW: with cameras as (local) webcams to look out the windows.
3A+: with another Iqaudio board for headphones on my desk.
3B+: with 1TB 2.5" hdd at another location for off site backup.
And you?
On 28/10/2021 10:43, gareth evans wrote:
On 28/10/2021 10:05, gareth evans wrote:well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a problem :-)
Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!Oops, forgot the ...
When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11 with 32 KB
Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost about £10K whereas my
annual salary as a graduate beginner was about £1350 PA, way back in
1972 and I thought that I was the bees' knees back then!
https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-2? mc_cid=d871881b1e&mc_eid=22518990c8
On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solutionWell I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
looking for a TN> problem :-)
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in
the same Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web int;erface as the user interface
On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:48:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solutionWell I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
looking for a TN> problem :-)
Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in
the same Zero footprint.
I can't wait to receive a few.
did with Pis.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
int;erface as the user interface
Pi400: used for personal web & twitter access whilst I am at work Pi4B:
used as a Kodi Media playback Pi4B: with touch screen, mainly used with
a Bitscope as a DSO Pi3B+: Another Kodi Playback device Pi3B+: Web application developement server Pi2B: WEb Server running Wordpress
Pi3A+: Octo print server Pi3a+: Robot tank & test platform for Piwars
PiZero: Bought by mistake, currently used as xmas decoration PiZeroW: Internet radio (pimoroni Pirate radio)
PiZeroW: Hexapod robot (re-capitated Tobbie)
PizeroW: Gyro Stabalised Mecanum Rover
+ Undefined(as yet) 3* Pi3a+ (1 on loan), 2 x PiZeroW, 1X Pi4(2gb)
also have a number of dead units due to wiring mishaps (pi3a+, Pi2B & at least 2 PiZeroW
My Name is Alister & I am a Pi-Aholic
in /boot/config.txt for the Pi4 to allow it to boot headless.
On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
I have an old Pi running my central heating and hot water system. Home brew software, running on RISC OS. Includes web interface and voice control.
Thought about doing that, but realised if I need to sell the house, it
would be a downside.
I've used iSpy on Windows for this. It works OK, but you need a paid subscription to enable the sending of an alert email, and it only takes/emails one photo, whereas the camera's built-in monitoring
takes/emails five in rapid succession.
I was hoping to find some good free software for the Pi, preferably asan installable package rather than a complete OS build, so I can run it alongside other things like the weather-station or PVR software.
On 29/10/2021 22:47, John Aldridge wrote:
Wildlife camera (Motion)
Id be interested in hearing more about that.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015VE4KP0
The built-in IR illuminators have a range of 3-4 metres.
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
they did with Pis.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
I have only one Pi in use, an early 512Kb model B2 that I use fairly infrequently for development work.
I also have a second Pi 2B, a Zero-W and a PICO sitting on the shelf
waiting for me to get a round tuit to work on the project they were
bought for: a programmable timer for use on electric powered free flight model aircraft. The Pi 2B will be fitted with a TFT touch sensitive
screen and used as a portable controller for the timer.
Currently I'm dithering over what I'll use to implement the timer: it
could be a PICAXE M14, the Pi Zero or the PICO.
The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer BASIC,
though it does have built-in support for controlling RC servos,
The Zero and the PICO have big the advantage of being programmable in C.
The PICO looks interesting, because should be possible to use one or two cores as dedicated servo controllers, another for communication with the
Pi used as timer controller, and still have at least one other core to
run the timer's main logic.
On 01/11/2021 13:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer
BASIC,
Or assembler, one presumes.
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
on an 6809.
Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web >interface as the user interface.
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:47:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTSThere are reasonable C compilers for the 6809 - running under FLEX09 or
on an 6809.
OS-9 operating systems, but I thought they were rather slow, since
compiler section was loaded from floppy and run in sequence. They're also >quite old - at least the ones I tried used pre-ANSI C syntax.
On 30/10/2021 03:23, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Or at least not with the software I
could find some time ago, everything seems to be "forked from a
fork of a fork" sort of stuff and there's little clear
documentation of the changes
Yes. I increasingly find that the interweb is full of 'scripts that will >solve your problem' and is increasingly bereft of 'this is the
documentation that will enable anyone else to write a better scripts
than I hacked up'
In article <slip55$dac$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Yes. I increasingly find that the interweb is full of 'scripts that will solve your problem' and is increasingly bereft of 'this is the documentation that will enable anyone else to write a better scripts
than I hacked up'
At least the script is somewhat human-parsable, so that if you can figure
out what it's doing, you stand a chance at modifying it to do what you
really need it to do.
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
on an 6809.
Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated
code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very >efficient
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:47:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/11/2021 13:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:I'm not sure about that, but I get the strong impression assembler isn't supported by the PICAXE organisation. As you may have gathered from the
The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer
BASIC,
Or assembler, one presumes.
name, the thing is basically a tarted-up PIC mpu in a plastic DIP
package. Its servo support is quite nice: just write a servo position
code to the 'servo port' and the pin emits the standard RC servo wave
form: a 1-2mS pulse every 20 mS, the pulse length encoding the servo position.
I'm uncertain whether there's any custom hardware involved: documentation doesn't say. All I know is that the BASIC source is compiled, linked with
a binary support package (customised to match whatever PICAXE chip you're using), the resulting binary blob is uploaded into the PICAXE device and started.
Said compiler is meant to be run on X86 kit, but there's also a third
party X86 emulator (a qemu derivative) that lets you run the PICAXE Basic compiler on an RPi.
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTSThere are reasonable C compilers for the 6809 - running under FLEX09 or
on an 6809.
OS-9 operating systems, but I thought they were rather slow, since
compiler section was loaded from floppy and run in sequence. They're also quite old - at least the ones I tried used pre-ANSI C syntax.
Graham Trott's PL/9 (a port of PL/M to 8809 FLEX systems), because it was very much faster than any C compiler I saw. It combined the editor,
compiler, and debugger as a single integrated package that would easily compile surprisingly large PL/9 source modules on a 48K system.
In message <slor53$apb$1@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
on an 6809.
Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated
code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
efficient
Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
in C?
But, being a 6809 (my favourite of that generation), I guess the
compiler was rather crude.
David
In message <ehWfJ.13996$IB7.7492@fx02.iad>
Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
In article <slip55$dac$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Yes. I increasingly find that the interweb is full of 'scripts that will >>> solve your problem' and is increasingly bereft of 'this is the
documentation that will enable anyone else to write a better scripts
than I hacked up'
At least the script is somewhat human-parsable, so that if you can figure
out what it's doing, you stand a chance at modifying it to do what you
really need it to do.
On the occasions I've looked at this sort of stuff, the major problem
is that it relies on a library, and all the interesting stuff is in
the library rather than the script.
David
On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 10:48:24 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> declaimed the following:
in /boot/config.txt for the Pi4 to allow it to boot headless.Other than initial configuration of a new OS image (which I do perform with HDMI and Logitech "Unifying" keyboard/mouse, using my puny gaming TV, all of my R-Pis, including both 4s (2 and 4 GB) boot without monitors/keyboard. I don't recall ever modifying config.txt as to monitor type/etc.
PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
architectures are.
In message <slgch5$7id$2@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.
On 30/10/2021 17:20, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 10:48:24 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> declaimed
the
following:
in /boot/config.txt for the Pi4 to allow it to boot headless.Other than initial configuration of a new OS image (which I do perform
with HDMI and Logitech "Unifying" keyboard/mouse, using my puny gaming
TV,
all of my R-Pis, including both 4s (2 and 4 GB) boot without
monitors/keyboard. I don't recall ever modifying config.txt as to monitor
type/etc.
They should boot headless without the monitor setting, (although there may have been issues with early Pi 4B firmware), but if you connect a monitor after boot it will be in a low resolution mode, or show no display at all.
So it is a good idea to put in the setting for the monitor you may have to connect when you are diagnosing any issues.
On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.
You would benefit enormously from a Pi 4B. While the Pi 3B+ can run a
desktop at just about an acceptable speed, it soon hits a wall when the
1GB of memory is used. A 4GB or even better a 8GB Pi 4B can run far more things without running out of memory, so you are really able to take advantage of the faster processor, the USB3 to attach an SSD, and the
full gigabit Ethernet too.
On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
In message <slgch5$7id$2@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.
My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.
You would benefit enormously from a Pi 4B. While the Pi 3B+ can run a
desktop at just about an acceptable speed, it soon hits a wall when the
1GB of memory is used. A 4GB or even better a 8GB Pi 4B can run far more things without running out of memory, so you are really able to take advantage of the faster processor, the USB3 to attach an SSD, and the full gigabit Ethernet too.
On 01/11/2021 14:47, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:47:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Think what I used was Introl cross running on a PDP/11 with Unix...
On 01/11/2021 13:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:I'm not sure about that, but I get the strong impression assembler
The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer
BASIC,
Or assembler, one presumes.
isn't supported by the PICAXE organisation. As you may have gathered
from the name, the thing is basically a tarted-up PIC mpu in a plastic
DIP package. Its servo support is quite nice: just write a servo
position code to the 'servo port' and the pin emits the standard RC
servo wave form: a 1-2mS pulse every 20 mS, the pulse length encoding
the servo position.
I'm uncertain whether there's any custom hardware involved:
documentation doesn't say. All I know is that the BASIC source is
compiled, linked with a binary support package (customised to match
whatever PICAXE chip you're using), the resulting binary blob is
uploaded into the PICAXE device and started.
Said compiler is meant to be run on X86 kit, but there's also a third
party X86 emulator (a qemu derivative) that lets you run the PICAXE
Basic compiler on an RPi.
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTSThere are reasonable C compilers for the 6809 - running under FLEX09 or
on an 6809.
OS-9 operating systems, but I thought they were rather slow, since
compiler section was loaded from floppy and run in sequence. They're
also quite old - at least the ones I tried used pre-ANSI C syntax.
Graham Trott's PL/9 (a port of PL/M to 8809 FLEX systems), because itI have looked into this as a bit of curiosity. C exists for PIC CPUs, although possibly not the pickaxe..
was very much faster than any C compiler I saw. It combined the editor,
compiler, and debugger as a single integrated package that would easily
compile surprisingly large PL/9 source modules on a 48K system.
On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:
In message <slor53$apb$1@dont-email.me>Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
on an 6809.
Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it
generated code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it
wasn't very efficient
Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
in C?
bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.
But, being a 6809 (my favourite of that generation), I guess theIt was. we used to inspect the assembler and gasp in horror, and rewrite
compiler was rather crude.
the tricky bits in assembler.
On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
on an 6809.
Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated >>> code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
efficient
Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
in C?
Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.
Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window)
for the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).
On the Pi4 (8 GB), the BBC News page is displayed within about 10
seconds, of which the first 8 is waiting for the window to appear.
There is also a big difference in CPU usage (as shown by the widget on
the taskbar). On the 3B+, starting FF increases usage from about 3% to
about 70% and stays there; on the 4 it increases to about 60% but only
for about 10 seconds after which it reverts to 5%.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:32:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/11/2021 14:47, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:47:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Think what I used was Introl cross running on a PDP/11 with Unix...
On 01/11/2021 13:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:I'm not sure about that, but I get the strong impression assembler
The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient >>>>> choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer
BASIC,
Or assembler, one presumes.
isn't supported by the PICAXE organisation. As you may have gathered
from the name, the thing is basically a tarted-up PIC mpu in a plastic
DIP package. Its servo support is quite nice: just write a servo
position code to the 'servo port' and the pin emits the standard RC
servo wave form: a 1-2mS pulse every 20 mS, the pulse length encoding
the servo position.
I'm uncertain whether there's any custom hardware involved:
documentation doesn't say. All I know is that the BASIC source is
compiled, linked with a binary support package (customised to match
whatever PICAXE chip you're using), the resulting binary blob is
uploaded into the PICAXE device and started.
Said compiler is meant to be run on X86 kit, but there's also a third
party X86 emulator (a qemu derivative) that lets you run the PICAXE
Basic compiler on an RPi.
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS >>>> on an 6809.There are reasonable C compilers for the 6809 - running under FLEX09 or
OS-9 operating systems, but I thought they were rather slow, since
compiler section was loaded from floppy and run in sequence. They're
also quite old - at least the ones I tried used pre-ANSI C syntax.
Graham Trott's PL/9 (a port of PL/M to 8809 FLEX systems), because itI have looked into this as a bit of curiosity. C exists for PIC CPUs,
was very much faster than any C compiler I saw. It combined the editor,
compiler, and debugger as a single integrated package that would easily
compile surprisingly large PL/9 source modules on a 48K system.
although possibly not the pickaxe..
Thanks for looking anyway: as I said, I had a fairly careful search of
their website but only the BASIC was mentioned - that I could see anyway.
Its nice to know that I didn't miss anything.
I presume the PIC C compilers you did find were cross-compilers?
I am not very up in this stuff but I think the pickAXE is a PIC with
some form of bootloader and bios installed so it can compile and run its >BASIC. So its a bit like an early home computer.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:18:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:That was the really nice feature of PL/9: it generated really nice code
In message <slor53$apb$1@dont-email.me>Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS >>>> on an 6809.
Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it
generated code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it
wasn't very efficient
Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
in C?
bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.
But, being a 6809 (my favourite of that generation), I guess theIt was. we used to inspect the assembler and gasp in horror, and rewrite
compiler was rather crude.
the tricky bits in assembler.
and had a compiler option was to display generated assembler as test, complete with opcode mnemonics, as well as your names for labels and variables.
Its one limitation was that it didn't optimise code between PL/9
statements, IOW a statement never left variables in registers or on the
stack ready for the next statement to use.
That said, I was never able to improve code generated by even a more
complex statement and, indeed, there was only one time I managed to
rewrite a function in assembler that was significantly smaller or faster
than code generated by the PL/9 compiler. That said, doing this was
sometimes useful, since the compiler would accept blocks of assembler embedded in in the PL/9 source. You didn't need to do that often, though,
and even then it was usually to do something really off the wall like
calling a subroutine in the ROMBUG or tweaking a UART's control registers.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS >>>> on an 6809.
Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated >>>> code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
efficient
Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
in C?
Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.
Yes, “integer promotions”. In most contexts, anything with a lower rank than int is implicitly converted to int (or sometimes, unsigned int)
before doing anything else with it.
However that doesn’t require 16 bit operations in the object code.
char a,b,c;
a=b+c;
...can generate an 8-bit add, provided the compiler is smart enough to
spot that the top 8 bits will subsequently be discarded anyway. So
you’re into ‘quality of implementation’ questions there.
....Never had to use
assembler inside of Linux, ever.
I am not very up in this stuff but I think the pickAXE is a PIC with
some form of bootloader and bios installed so it can compile and run its BASIC. So its a bit like an early home computer.
I am glad you made me do this research because the PIC chips are cheap
and they are available in proper DIP packages and they have a load of
ADC channels - I want something to read a control board of up to 36 pots
and turn it into USB stream if I can. Speed not an issue, nor precision
- 8 bits enough. And a pair of PICs look pretty perfect.
With a few pins left over to drive some LEDS with.
The job was a digital storage oscilloscope. Gould Advance, around about
1984 I think. As I said at the time 'if you had not thought of this as
an oscilloscope with a bit of CPU in it, but had thought of it as 100Msamples/second A to D board/shift register for an IBM PC. And a
special control panel, it would have been quicker and cheaper to
design'...
The 6809 was totally the wrong chip. We ended up with 256k of bank
switched ROM, which was all horrendous. as each library routine had to remember which bank was switched in, switch in the needed one, and then switch back on exit..
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:31:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I am not very up in this stuff but I think the pickAXE is a PIC withI didn't think that the way PICAXE program compilation & installation
some form of bootloader and bios installed so it can compile and run its
BASIC. So its a bit like an early home computer.
works was obvious from the documentation, but actually doing it made
things a lot clearer.
It turns out that the compilation system is designed to run on an X86
system. Its output is a binary blob which is immediately loaded into the PICAXE chip over an RS-232 serial line, where its written to EEPROM and immediately booted up, which implies that part of the loader is hardwired
in the PICAXE chip. After that, the installed program simplt boots on power-up. The binary support blob thats added to the compiled code is specific to the PICAXE model being targetted - unsurprising since there
are a variety of systems packaged as 0.1" DIP or surface mount and with 8
to 40 pins. They all seem to treat pin references as name symbols rather
than hardware addresses, and similarly, different pins have different capabilities, e.g. input, output, UART, servo driver, many being
selectable multifunction, the function wanted is selected by using the relevant name for the pin.
The only common feature seems to be that all chips have a UART thats used
for loading the program into it and can be used to send trace and/or
debug info back to the compiler/loader package.
As I said before, its not obvious whether complex stuff like the servo
driver is implemented in hardware or is part of the binary support
blob.
IOW, I suspect that PICAXE packages have extra silicon in them compared
with bog standard PIC devices.
I am glad you made me do this research because the PIC chips are cheap:-)
and they are available in proper DIP packages and they have a load of
ADC channels - I want something to read a control board of up to 36 pots
and turn it into USB stream if I can. Speed not an issue, nor precision
- 8 bits enough. And a pair of PICs look pretty perfect.
With a few pins left over to drive some LEDS with.
The PICAXE devices are still very affordable: the 14M2, which can drive
two servos and the ESC, while the 8M2 only has a single PWM output, is
still only GBP 2.70.
Apologies if I've repeated myself too much.
On 02/11/2021 14:36, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:31:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I am not very up in this stuff but I think the pickAXE is a PIC withI didn't think that the way PICAXE program compilation & installation
some form of bootloader and bios installed so it can compile and run its >>> BASIC. So its a bit like an early home computer.
works was obvious from the documentation, but actually doing it made
things a lot clearer.
It turns out that the compilation system is designed to run on an X86
system. Its output is a binary blob which is immediately loaded into the
PICAXE chip over an RS-232 serial line, where its written to EEPROM and
immediately booted up, which implies that part of the loader is hardwired
in the PICAXE chip. After that, the installed program simplt boots on
power-up. The binary support blob thats added to the compiled code is
specific to the PICAXE model being targetted - unsurprising since there
are a variety of systems packaged as 0.1" DIP or surface mount and with 8
to 40 pins. They all seem to treat pin references as name symbols rather
than hardware addresses, and similarly, different pins have different
capabilities, e.g. input, output, UART, servo driver, many being
selectable multifunction, the function wanted is selected by using the
relevant name for the pin.
The only common feature seems to be that all chips have a UART thats used
for loading the program into it and can be used to send trace and/or
debug info back to the compiler/loader package.
As I said before, its not obvious whether complex stuff like the servo
driver is implemented in hardware or is part of the binary support
blob.
IOW, I suspect that PICAXE packages have extra silicon in them compared
with bog standard PIC devices.
I am glad you made me do this research because the PIC chips are cheap:-)
and they are available in proper DIP packages and they have a load of
ADC channels - I want something to read a control board of up to 36 pots >>> and turn it into USB stream if I can. Speed not an issue, nor precision
- 8 bits enough. And a pair of PICs look pretty perfect.
With a few pins left over to drive some LEDS with.
The PICAXE devices are still very affordable: the 14M2, which can drive
two servos and the ESC, while the 8M2 only has a single PWM output, is
still only GBP 2.70.
Apologies if I've repeated myself too much.
Hmm. I think you are not quite right. I think that the picaxe has a bit
of boot code loaded into part of its EEPROM, and programs loaded over
the top do not erase it. Sorta like 'Noobs' a bit.
But I'd guess that you could erase the lot if you stuck it in a PIC programmer.
Price for the chip is pretty comparable with a bare PIC chip. two and a
half smackers give or take.
Not sure RISC OS can use any memory over 1 GB, though; wasn't that a limitation?
"A PICAXE chip is a standard Microchip PIC microcontroller that has been pre-programmed with the PICAXE bootstrap firmware code. The bootstrap
code enables the PICAXE microcontroller to be re-programmed 'in
position' directly via a simple 'three wire' download cable connection.
This eliminates the need for an (expensive) conventional PIC programmer, making the whole download programming system a low-cost USB cable. The
same software and download cable is used for all PICAXE chip sizes and project boards.
If you purchase 'blank' PIC chips they will not work in the PICAXE
system, as they do not contain the PICAXE firmware. Therefore always buy pre-programmed 'PICAXE chips'."
To me its like the n00bs thing. sounded great, proved to be a pain in
the butt, reprogrammed with Raspian from a linux machine via SD card
reader and never looked back...
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:49:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The job was a digital storage oscilloscope. Gould Advance, around aboutA pity you didn't know about Microware's OS/9 OS - written at Motorola's request to show off the 6809, OS/9 Level 2 handled all that bank
1984 I think. As I said at the time 'if you had not thought of this as
an oscilloscope with a bit of CPU in it, but had thought of it as
100Msamples/second A to D board/shift register for an IBM PC. And a
special control panel, it would have been quicker and cheaper to
design'...
The 6809 was totally the wrong chip. We ended up with 256k of bank
switched ROM, which was all horrendous. as each library routine had to
remember which bank was switched in, switch in the needed one, and then
switch back on exit..
switching and remembering which bank held what code.
It was well written, so much so that OS/9 Level 1 (no bank switching) was very easily ported to the MC680x0 mpus. I used OS/9 for years. It was
quite the most bugfree OS I've ever had the pleasure to use: I never
found a single bug in it.
On 02/11/2021 15:07, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:49:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Shh don't go back in time and tell them - I would be out of a job!
The job was a digital storage oscilloscope. Gould Advance, aroundA pity you didn't know about Microware's OS/9 OS - written at
about 1984 I think. As I said at the time 'if you had not thought of
this as an oscilloscope with a bit of CPU in it, but had thought of it
as 100Msamples/second A to D board/shift register for an IBM PC. And
a special control panel, it would have been quicker and cheaper to
design'...
The 6809 was totally the wrong chip. We ended up with 256k of bank
switched ROM, which was all horrendous. as each library routine had to
remember which bank was switched in, switch in the needed one, and
then switch back on exit..
Motorola's request to show off the 6809, OS/9 Level 2 handled all that
bank switching and remembering which bank held what code.
It was well written, so much so that OS/9 Level 1 (no bank switching)
was very easily ported to the MC680x0 mpus. I used OS/9 for years. It
was quite the most bugfree OS I've ever had the pleasure to use: I
never found a single bug in it.
BTW, OS/9 Level 1 was available commercially almost a year before the IBM
PC was launched with the <<cough>> wonderful <<cough>> PC-DOS as its only
OS.
On 02-11-2021 09:56, druck wrote:
On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.
You would benefit enormously from a Pi 4B. While the Pi 3B+ can run a
desktop at just about an acceptable speed, it soon hits a wall when
the 1GB of memory is used. A 4GB or even better a 8GB Pi 4B can run
far more things without running out of memory, so you are really able
to take advantage of the faster processor, the USB3 to attach an SSD,
and the full gigabit Ethernet too.
Not sure RISC OS can use any memory over 1 GB, though; wasn't that a limitation? And compared to the full multi user Linux desktop it's a
very simple system and thus fast; I don't know whether you would notice
any speed difference between the Pi 3 and 4 (certainly with some tasks
but not general use, I think).
Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window)
for the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).
On 30/10/2021 03:02, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:^^^^^^^
PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
architectures are.
Not really, there are 4 form factors A, B, Zero and Compute, and
Sorry I can't believe I knocked out that reply without seeing the RISC
OS bit, the comments were aimed at running Linux, but some still apply.
Yes RISC OS can use over 1GB, about 3.5GB on my 4GB Pi4B. RISC OS wont
take any advantage of USB3, but an SSD is still vastly preferable to a
SD card. The increased performance of the Pi 4B over the 3B is very
obvious in use. RISC OS can make good use of the gigabit Ethernet, up to 50MB/s to and from my NAS which is a Pi 4B running Linux (using LanManFS
and LanMan90, Sunfish NFS is a bit slower). The networking performance
also makes VNC sever very usable, so most of the time I remote control
it from other machines rather than switching monitors and keyboards.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:52:05 -0000 (UTC)
Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
BTW, OS/9 Level 1 was available commercially almost a year before the IBM
PC was launched with the <<cough>> wonderful <<cough>> PC-DOS as its only
OS.
The PC standardised the small computer industry at a point somewhat behind where everyone else had already gone well past. It was a long time before anything that ran on it matched OS/9 or MP/M let alone unix of some flavour on a 68000.
On 2021-11-02, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the
initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window)
for the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).
And that, ladies and germs, is why the first thing I do with a
new web browser is to configure it to start up on a blank page.
I want to be able to go anywhere when I start up, and usually do.
In my case, having a home page would be like having your car
automatically go to the Walmart across town when you really
want to go to a specialty store three blocks away in the
opposite direction.
On 30/10/2021 03:02, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
architectures are.
Not really, there are 4 form factors A, B, Zero and Compute,
and different numbered generations.
Tweaks to a generation get a plus sign.
cc65 is a reasonably useful cross-compiler for the 6502 that has been used for several decently-sized projects. It targets all of the 6502-based systems you've heard of (Apple, Commodore, Atari, Nintendo), and others that maybe you haven't.
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