To: DOVE-Net.Synchronet_Discussion
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Anyone here familiar with MSSP?

https://mudhalla.net/tintin/protocols/mssp/

In short, it's a system by which a client can poll a "MUD" server and
get all kinds of information like number of players, if adult-only,
genre, etc.

I've been thinking about if this would be useful for BBSes.

Thoughts?

Here's a record in my database for a MUD that supports MSSP as an example:

https://www.ipingthereforeiam.com/bbs/?step=detail&id=20582

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Re: MSSP
By: dragon to DOVE-Net.Synchronet_Discussion on Tue Mar 09 2021 02:37 pm

I've been thinking about if this would be useful for BBSes.

Thoughts?

Looks interesting, but pretty MUD-specific.

Also... Telnet option? Ugh. That's a terrible idea for a new protocol. :-(
I understand it has the benefit of using the same TCP port/stream already in use for the MUD, but then that precludes use of other/better terminal protocols (e.g. SSH).

If you want stats from Synchronet BBS, I recommend using finger. The Synchronet fingerservice has a lot of (potentially interesting) stats available for anyone that wishes to query and it's very easy to extend (unlike the MSSP protocol).
--
digital man

This Is Spinal Tap quote #8:
Derek Smalls: Making a big thing out of it would have been a good idea.
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On 3/9/2021 8:56 PM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: MSSP
By: dragon to DOVE-Net.Synchronet_Discussion on Tue Mar 09 2021 02:37 pm

> I've been thinking about if this would be useful for BBSes.
>
> Thoughts?

Looks interesting, but pretty MUD-specific.

Also... Telnet option? Ugh. That's a terrible idea for a new protocol. :-(
I understand it has the benefit of using the same TCP port/stream already in use for the MUD, but then that precludes use of other/better terminal protocols (e.g. SSH).

If you want stats from Synchronet BBS, I recommend using finger. The Synchronet fingerservice has a lot of (potentially interesting) stats available for anyone that wishes to query and it's very easy to extend (unlike the MSSP protocol).

Actually, I wasn't thinking of doing it EXACTLY like MSSP. My initial
thought was that, say, if "INFO" was entered as the username at the
LOGON prompt, a BBS-appropriate little data dump of name-value pairs was displayed.

This would be the same for telnet/rlogin/ssh.

The BBS could even loop back to the username prompt afterward.

I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
Synchronet on this.

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm

I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
Synchronet on this.

Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)
--
digital man

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #62:
R0DENT = Derogatory reference to a young BBS user of the 1990's
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On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm

> I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> Synchronet on this.

Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)

I'm aware, but do other BBS packages have a finger server already
integrated?

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm

> I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> Synchronet on this.

Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)

I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.

Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the username.

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Wed Mar 10 2021 11:04 am

On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm

> I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> Synchronet on this.

Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)

I'm aware, but do other BBS packages have a finger server already integrated?

I don't know... but they could add one pretty easily I think, if they don't already.
--
digital man

This Is Spinal Tap quote #28:
We've got Armadillos in our trousers. It's really quite frightening.
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Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Wed Mar 10 2021 03:03 pm

On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm

> I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> Synchronet on this.

Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)

I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.

Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the username.

Yeah, that works. Format looks .ini-ish (except for the spaces in the key names, e.g. "MINIMUM AGE=13"), so that should be univerally easy to parse. I'm not sure about all the systems that use login matrices and how difficult querying such systems for that "info" in an authomated fashion via that method might be. Simply connecting and sending "info" is likely to not work on a large percentage of systems (e.g. pause prompts, lightbar menus).

Just an FYI, your login diplay file doesn't work right on > 80 column terminals. Might want to check that out. :-)
--
digital man

This Is Spinal Tap quote #37:
David St. Hubbins: We are Spinal Tap from the UK - you must be the USA!
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On 3/10/2021 9:58 PM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Wed Mar 10 2021 03:03 pm

> On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:
> > Re: Re: MSSP
> > By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm
>
> > > I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> > > Synchronet on this.
>
> > Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)
>
> I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.
>
> Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the username.

Yeah, that works. Format looks .ini-ish (except for the spaces in the key names, e.g. "MINIMUM AGE=13"), so that should be univerally easy to parse. I'm not sure about all the systems that use login matrices and how difficult querying such systems for that "info" in an authomated fashion via that method might be. Simply connecting and sending "info" is likely to not work on a large percentage of systems (e.g. pause prompts, lightbar menus).

The spaces in field names can easily go. The output could be XML even.

Actually, from my studies, the majority of Synchronet systems have a
stock login, but you're right, dealing with matrices and other preambles
could be a problem.

That's kind of why I contacted you to see if this was something feasible
to build in to the server software as an option.

I don't even know yet if this is something a significant number of
sysops would be interested in having.

Just an FYI, your login diplay file doesn't work right on > 80 column terminals. Might want to check that out. :-)

It was the @WORDWRAP@ macro. Thanks.

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Thu Mar 11 2021 11:34 am

On 3/10/2021 9:58 PM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Wed Mar 10 2021 03:03 pm

> On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:
> > Re: Re: MSSP
> > By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm
>
> > > I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> > > Synchronet on this.
>
> > Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)
>
> I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.
>
> Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the username.

Yeah, that works. Format looks .ini-ish (except for the spaces in the key names, e.g. "MINIMUM AGE=13"), so that should be univerally easy to parse. I'm not sure about all the systems that use login matrices and how difficult querying such systems for that "info" in an authomated fashion via that method might be. Simply connecting and sending "info" is likely to not work on a large percentage of systems (e.g. pause prompts, lightbar menus).

The spaces in field names can easily go. The output could be XML even.

I would recommend ini, json, or maybe yaml (in that order) instead of XML.

Actually, from my studies, the majority of Synchronet systems have a
stock login, but you're right, dealing with matrices and other preambles could be a problem.

That's kind of why I contacted you to see if this was something feasible
to build in to the server software as an option.

There's already something very much like this in the Synchronet fingerservice: finger ?stats.json@vert.synchro.net

Additional queries like that are trivial to add (no code change to the server).

Building it into the Telnet protocol is certainly possible, but like I said, limits use to only over Telnet.

I don't even know yet if this is something a significant number of
sysops would be interested in having.

Not sure on that front either. Some BBSes might consider those kinds of stats (e.g. number of users) as private data.
--
digital man

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #22:
DOS = Disk Operating System (as in PC-DOS and MS-DOS)
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On 3/10/2021 1:03 PM, dragon wrote:

I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.

Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the username.

Is this an existing standard? It feels like using a standard format,
JSON, YAML, TOML, INI etc would be best... and probably a fixed route definition over HTTP(S).
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
---
ï¿­ Synchronet ï¿­ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
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On 3/11/2021 7:29 PM, Digital Man wrote:

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Thu Mar 11 2021 11:34 am

> On 3/10/2021 9:58 PM, Digital Man wrote:
> > Re: Re: MSSP
> > By: dragon to Digital Man on Wed Mar 10 2021 03:03 pm
>
> > > On 3/10/2021 4:29 AM, Digital Man wrote:
> > > > Re: Re: MSSP
> > > > By: dragon to Digital Man on Tue Mar 09 2021 11:57 pm
> > >
> > > > > I'm not against using finger, I just am trying to think beyond
> > > > > Synchronet on this.
> > >
> > > > Finger is not a Synchronet-only technology. :-)
> > >
> > > I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.
> > >
> > > Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the
> > username.
>
> > Yeah, that works. Format looks .ini-ish (except for the spaces in the key
> > names, e.g. "MINIMUM AGE=13"), so that should be univerally easy to parse.
> > I'm not sure about all the systems that use login matrices and how
> > difficult querying such systems for that "info" in an authomated fashion
> > via that method might be. Simply connecting and sending "info" is likely
> > to not work on a large percentage of systems (e.g. pause prompts, lightbar
> > menus).
>
>
> The spaces in field names can easily go. The output could be XML even.

I would recommend ini, json, or maybe yaml (in that order) instead of XML.

> Actually, from my studies, the majority of Synchronet systems have a
> stock login, but you're right, dealing with matrices and other preambles
> could be a problem.
>
> That's kind of why I contacted you to see if this was something feasible
> to build in to the server software as an option.

There's already something very much like this in the Synchronet fingerservice:
finger ?stats.json@vert.synchro.net

Additional queries like that are trivial to add (no code change to the server).

Building it into the Telnet protocol is certainly possible, but like I said, limits use to only over Telnet.

> I don't even know yet if this is something a significant number of
> sysops would be interested in having.

Not sure on that front either. Some BBSes might consider those kinds of stats (e.g. number of users) as private data.

Actually, all of those detail stats I only put in because it was easy in Synchronet.

What I would be most interested in would be:

BBSNAME
IPADDRESS
TELNETPORT
RLOGONPORT
SSHPORT
CONTACTEMAIL
WEBPAGE
CITY
STATE
COUNTRY
ADULT
MINAGE
PAY
FTNADDRESS
DESCRIPTION

I'm ready to let this topic rest for a while and wait to see if anyone
else chimes in with any interest.

BTW, I enabled the finger service on my Synchronet, but I keep getting "Connection refused".

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

BTW, I enabled the finger service on my Synchronet, but I keep getting "Connection refused".

The finger issue was that the service apparently can't reload if an NNTP session is active.

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Re: Re: MSSP
By: dragon to Digital Man on Thu Mar 11 2021 10:41 pm

> That's kind of why I contacted you to see if this was something feasible
> to build in to the server software as an option.

There's already something very much like this in the Synchronet fingerservice:
finger ?stats.json@vert.synchro.net

Additional queries like that are trivial to add (no code change to the server).

Building it into the Telnet protocol is certainly possible, but like I said, limits use to only over Telnet.

> I don't even know yet if this is something a significant number of
> sysops would be interested in having.

Not sure on that front either. Some BBSes might consider those kinds of stats (e.g. number of users) as private data.

Actually, all of those detail stats I only put in because it was easy in Synchronet.

What I would be most interested in would be:

BBSNAME
IPADDRESS
TELNETPORT
RLOGONPORT
SSHPORT
CONTACTEMAIL
WEBPAGE
CITY
STATE
COUNTRY
ADULT
MINAGE
PAY
FTNADDRESS
DESCRIPTION

Yeah, it'd be trivial to add another query type to fingerservice.js to provide those details. There's already some of that details included in the ?services query response.

I'm ready to let this topic rest for a while and wait to see if anyone
else chimes in with any interest.

BTW, I enabled the finger service on my Synchronet, but I keep getting "Connection refused".

Maybe you need to forward the finger TCP port to the BBS from your router?
--
digital man

Rush quote #8:
One likes to believe in the freedom of music...
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Re: Finger
By: dragon to dragon on Thu Mar 11 2021 10:45 pm

BTW, I enabled the finger service on my Synchronet, but I keep getting "Connection refused".

The finger issue was that the service apparently can't reload if an NNTP session is active.

Yeah, all services need to be not in-use for the services server to recycle.
--
digital man

Sling Blade quote #2:
Karl (re: killing Doyle): I hit him two good whacks in the head with it.
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On 3/11/2021 7:39 PM, Tracker1 wrote:

On 3/10/2021 1:03 PM, dragon wrote:

I put together a little test version of what I had in mind.

Telnet to bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com:2323, enter "info" as the username.

Is this an existing standard?  It feels like using a standard format,
JSON, YAML, TOML, INI etc would be best... and probably a fixed route definition over HTTP(S).

The idea is based on the MSSP protocol used by the MUD community, but is otherwise complete conjecture at this point.

Using name=vale pairs, one per line is how MSSP works now, and I tend to
agree that it's a good simple format.

What data to actually sent is still open to debate as well. I will
alter the demo to have distinct standard and optional sections.

---
þ Synchronet þ IPTIA - bbs2.ipingthereforeiam.com
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)